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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 5:32:31 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8353.html

I am not the only one that thinks things are getting messy in the Dem Party

Interesting article. This, I didn't not know:

Superdelegates grow in number as the party gets more successful: They include all Democratic members of Congress, members of the Democratic National Committee, Democratic governors.

They also are the party warhorses and include “all former Democratic presidents, all former Democratic vice presidents, all former Democratic leaders of the U.S. Senate, all former Democratic speakers of the U.S. House of Representatives and Democratic minority leaders, as applicable, and all former chairs of the Democratic National Committee.”

This means that not only Bill Clinton, but Terry McAuliffe, Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, are superdelegates.

And their votes count just as much as the delegates chosen by actual primary voters.

Not really "of the people" is it?

Firm

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 5:49:20 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I thiink that it might just be a McCain Huckaby ticket for the Republicans, but I don't think that the Dems have anyone in the wings for VP. And I just cant see an obama/clinton or clinton/obama ticket.

He may ask Hucklebee to be his vp but how is that going to help him?
His knickname is "Mr. Amnesty".
One believes in Amnesty the other thinks that the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Oh yeah, we'll be in good hands.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/6/2008 6:19:16 PM >

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 5:49:44 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Another interesting fact is that the Repub primary system is pretty well set up to elevate the chances of a non-conservative early in the primary process. McCain benefited from the votes of liberal Republicans and independents in several instances, and then - because of his perceived frontruner status - drew a lot of the middle of the road Republicans.

I just don't buy it. Iowa, won by Huckabee and always trends conservative, New Hampshire, a very fiscally conservative state, and South Carolina, a very conservative heavily evangelical state, were the opening round of contests as usual. Florida and Michigan aren't exactly bastions of liberal republicanism either. Super Tuesday was 4 southern states as well as a number in the mountain west which are some of the most conservative in the nation. Which would have nicely offset the more moderate CA, NY and atlantic coast states. If this was a simple two man race between a moderate McCain and a conservative acceptable to the evangelicals it would be roughly a dead heat with a slew of conservative friendly contest coming the rest of the month.

Well ... you are seeing it through your own political point of view.

The Republicans are known as the "Big Tent" party for a reason. The biggest internal battles in the last few decades has been between the old style Republicans (big government, big business) and Reagan Democrats (what you'd call "conservatives"). Like the Dem primary system, the Republican system is a compromise. The "old style" and the Reaganites fight over it for advantage.

Nothing in New England is anything approaching "conservative" anymore. And the Michigan Republican primary allowed independents to vote. You think those independents are the more conservative people in the state? Florida isn't much of a conservative state at all. Too many northerns done come down to carpet bag or retire. Except for the panhandle, "Republican" does not equate to "conservative" there.

Iowa is early, generally "evangelical", but doesn't really count for much in the long run.

South Carolina? Ok .... conservative, and counts. One outa how many?

Usually, a strong front runner is in place before the "Super" races, and the other states you mentioned.

Firm

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 6:19:28 PM

OrionTheWolf

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And what happens in a Republic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Right. But in a democracy, the people get the government they deserve. Girls and boys, vote wisely. I'll just stand by the wayside and pray :-).

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 6:24:51 PM

popeye1250

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Firmhand, South Carolina is getting like Florida with all the "Yankees" moving down here for better weather and no hurricanes as opposed to Fla.
McCain burned a lot of bridges with that Amnesty shit and calling people who were against it, "racists."
He's going to have problems.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 6:44:08 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8353.html

I am not the only one that thinks things are getting messy in the Dem Party

This is an article predicting problems,as in "the future".It doesn`t mention anything presently going on.And it`s only conjecture and musings.

The arcane rules involved in proportional awarding of delegates,wouldn`t be an issue if there was a winner take all system,like the GOP has.

Perhaps you`re projecting the crap that`s going on with republicans onto the dems?

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 6:46:30 PM

Owner59

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Popeye,

Doesn`t coming from New Hampshire mean that you`re a "Yankee" too?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/6/2008 6:47:36 PM >

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 6:52:27 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Popeye,

Doesn`t coming from New Hampshire mean that you`re a "Yankee" too?

No, I'm just a good ol' boy who talks funny.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 6:56:07 PM

MissSCD

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/6/2008 7:16:51 PM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8353.html

I am not the only one that thinks things are getting messy in the Dem Party

This is an article predicting problems,as in "the future".It doesn`t mention anything presently going on.And it`s only conjecture and musings.

The arcane rules involved in proportional awarding of delegates,wouldn`t be an issue if there was a winner take all system,like the GOP has.

Perhaps you`re projecting the crap that`s going on with republicans onto the dems?

Yup Is a prediction of the future, but so is the basic comment "seems like"

Personally I like the proportional rules. But then I don't make political policy. LOL

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 12:05:50 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

If Obama win the nomination at this point I think he walks into the Whitehouse which is something that I would have never considered a few months ago.

In your first two posts you do a fairly good job sizing things up. But Obahma ''walking'' into the Whitehouse if he gets the nomination, is a HUGE stretch.

As much as I can’t stand McCain, I see Obahma picking up the Black vote and then he takes the Volvo/cheap Mercedes-driving, Brie and Chardonnay contingent from places like Aspen and Hartford, Connecticut. But that's it.

McCain gets the Latino /Asian vote, and then most of caucasin, working-class America. And keep in mind, that’s before Obahma gets swiftboated.

Remember…McCain is known-about commodity. We don’t know that much about Obahma….and what I mean by that, is, the ''ceiling'' for skeletons to be found and dug out of the closet and then exploited, by Republican operatives in the mold of Carl Rove is perhaps ten times greater than that of McCain. That’s a very large and troublesome variable for the bettor who wants to lay his cash down on Obahma.

I don't know if you've seen this already, but this is just a small example of what's instore for Obahma if he wins the nomination and goes up against players like Rove.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVeFVtcdSYY

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/7/2008 12:18:35 AM >

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 12:54:54 AM

luckydog1

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The issue with the Super Delegates, for the Democrats could get real sticky. In my state over 4x as many Democrats turned out as in 04. And most of the first timers were non white and there for Obama. Obama got 75% of the caucus to Hillaries 25%. But she gets more delegates. Because of the Super Delegates. After 8 years of screaming about votes not counting, how are you going to explain that to them?

The Democrats don't even have a Democratic process for picking a nominee?!?! WTF!?!?

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 3:55:56 AM

KenDckey

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Hey Dog Maybe the Democrats will quit yelling now that they have turned it on themselves. What do you think? Or maybe they'll sue them selves to make their votes count.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 3:56:14 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Firmhand, South Carolina is getting like Florida with all the "Yankees" moving down here for better weather and no hurricanes as opposed to Fla.
McCain burned a lot of bridges with that Amnesty shit and calling people who were against it, "racists."
He's going to have problems.

He *WOULD* have problems, if the whole thing wasn't as phony as Pro Wrasslin'.

The 2 real horses in the alleged race are Hilary and McCain. Both of them have long tenures in the political world, and don't you think Hilary's *VERY* comfortable with her carpetbagged position as a Senator for New York, while it would be a VERY nice "Attaboy" for John to serve the 4 years Cheney would have gotten if the whole Bush administration wasn't so fucking fucked up, and then quietly retire to the land-o-ex-presidents....

That's my call, anyway... An expensive campaign where everyone's friends make a shitload of money, and then More Of The Same after the "elections" are over and done, rubberstamping the legitimacy of the illegitimate, and facilitating the continued waste of lives and plunder of the treasury.

Obama -- he got lucky. He was in the right place when Jack Ryan's campaign melted down ( very similar to Kristin Gillibrand getting NY-20 when John "Travelling accross state lines to tamper with a federal election" Sweeny got caught beating his 2nd Wife. You don't get to be president after your first album. Obama has to *prove* to TPTB that he can bring in the $, and play the game right first.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/7/2008 3:58:28 AM >

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 5:05:48 AM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
As much as I can’t stand McCain, I see Obahma picking up the Black vote and then he takes the Volvo/cheap Mercedes-driving, Brie and Chardonnay contingent from places like Aspen and Hartford, Connecticut. But that's it.

McCain gets the Latino /Asian vote, and then most of caucasin, working-class America. And keep in mind, that’s before Obahma gets swiftboated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVeFVtcdSYY

Utopian, I performed oral sex on you when you were not a teenager...no wait, I kid.

That was fucking hilarious. Priceless!

I just posted something along these lines elsewhere. McCain could really take it because he has a lot of people fooled. The powers that be have almost sucked the tap dry on the USA kegger and I have a funny feeling that they mean to do the job right and then float away to the UAE on the biggest golden parachutes yet seen by man.

BTW, I didn't want to tell you earlier but I'm fucking Matt Damon.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 2/7/2008 5:07:12 AM >

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 5:17:23 AM

mnottertail

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I hope to fuck there aint any blue tee shirts floating around, and that this guy isn't taking advice from Harvey Fierstein.

After the mess of the 68 dem convention, I would think that the superdelegates would run the pipe on national TV (but you never know).

I would like to see a real convention where the outcome needs to be bartered, havent had one of those in what 40-50 years.

The idea of proportional delegations was so that cities couldn't run over rural folks. Like any other concept, pretty easily perverted.

Ron

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 6:55:04 AM

toservez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

If Obama win the nomination at this point I think he walks into the Whitehouse which is something that I would have never considered a few months ago.

In your first two posts you do a fairly good job sizing things up. But Obahma ''walking'' into the Whitehouse if he gets the nomination, is a HUGE stretch.

As much as I can’t stand McCain, I see Obahma picking up the Black vote and then he takes the Volvo/cheap Mercedes-driving, Brie and Chardonnay contingent from places like Aspen and Hartford, Connecticut. But that's it.

McCain gets the Latino /Asian vote, and then most of caucasin, working-class America. And keep in mind, that’s before Obahma gets swiftboated.

Remember…McCain is known-about commodity. We don’t know that much about Obahma….and what I mean by that, is, the ''ceiling'' for skeletons to be found and dug out of the closet and then exploited, by Republican operatives in the mold of Carl Rove is perhaps ten times greater than that of McCain. That’s a very large and troublesome variable for the bettor who wants to lay his cash down on Obahma.

I don't know if you've seen this already, but this is just a small example of what's instore for Obahma if he wins the nomination and goes up against players like Rove.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVeFVtcdSYY
- R

As a minority and a woman I am not ignorant in thinking whether it is Clinton or Obama that gender or race won’t be a factor in the general election. It just appears from the start of the process through Tuesday that the trends are showing it not to be more and more.

First Obama is starting to draw from all demographics in his party. Right now the difference between him and Clinton from within their party is he is getting the professional (Starbucks) and Clinton is getting the blue collar (Wal-Mart) as you mentioned.

The fact is who ever wins the Democratic nomination most, especially the Clinton voters, are going to vote for the other Democrat just like despite Coulter far right wing is not going to vote for a Democrat just because McCain is too far to the left then they prefer.

As far as being swift boated, he has been lightly for a year now. The tactic in my opinion is becoming increasingly less effective. See 2006 results. Plus as he is starting to point out swift boating is not above the Clintons so there may just not be some skeleton that would bring out that reaction and even then that is more for a catalyst then a reason. Kerry was vunerable because no one liked him even us who voted for him.

McCain is going to be in a very difficult spot. Normally the Republican candidate after he wraps up the nomination immediately starts sprinting to the middle to woo the independents and moderate Democrats. This time though McCain might have to sprint to the right to try to energize the Republican base and get money which could spell doom for him in the national election.

McCain can draw the independents in the middle and the moderate Democrats but it is not a guarantee. Usually I think the selection of a VP candidate plays a minute factor but if McCain is forced to pick an overtly conservative one that could do some bad damage. With his view on the war and if he overtly tries to line up with the old right wing base that will piss off the middle who are done with the King Bush experiment which that movement is tied into.

It is just my opinion that this election is for the democrats to lose especially if the Republican base is not energized . Clinton pretty much everyone is an agreement can energize the opposition just by her name. So far we have not seen any indication that Obama would do the same.

Hey the Democrats could lose the election in any number of ways. It is what they are good at.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 10:56:45 AM

samboct

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Lin

Here, here. Well said.

URanger-Anybody can be swiftboated-that's the point to that tactic. Just like Nixon's smear machine convinced folks that Edmund Muskie was an alcoholic (he wasn't), the Swiftboat folks convinced people that Kerry wasn't a war hero. I used to have more faith in how the military gave out medals until GWBs daddy got one for being shot down and losing his crew. But you can only cry wolf so often.....

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 11:49:02 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

I used to have more faith in how the military gave out medals until GWBs daddy got one for being shot down and losing his crew.

Oh you mean back when medals actually stood for twue heroism... like LBJ's Silver Star?

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 12:33:49 PM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I used to have more faith in how the military gave out medals until GWBs daddy got one for being shot down and losing his crew.

Oh you mean back when medals actually stood for twue heroism... like LBJ's Silver Star?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush
While starting the attack, Bush's aircraft was hit and his engine caught on fire. Despite the fact that his plane was on fire, he completed his attack and released the bombs over his target, scoring several damaging hits. With his engine on fire, Bush flew several miles from the island, where he and one other crew member on the TBM Avenger bailed out of the aircraft. However, the other man's
did not open, and he fell to his death. It was never determined which man bailed out with Bush. Both Delaney and White were killed in action. While Bush waited four hours in his inflated raft, several fighters circled protectively overhead until he was rescued by the lifeguard submarine USS Finback. For this action Bush received the Distinguished Flying Cross.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson

Johnson reported to General
in Australia. Johnson and two Army officers went to the 22nd Bomb Group base, which was assigned the high risk mission of bombing the Japanese airbase at Lae in New Guinea. A colonel took Johnson's original seat on one bomber; it was shot down and everyone died. Reports vary on what happened to the B-26 Marauder carrying Johnson. Some accounts say it was also attacked by Japanese fighters but survived, while others claim it turned back before reaching the objective and never came under fire. MacArthur awarded LBJ the Silver Star, the military's third-highest medal, for his actions.

Bush at least flew his burning shot up plane to complete his mission. A congressman sitting as an observer on a combat mission can also be considered heroic by some. Remember LBJ was discharged shortly thereafter and returned to congress by Roosevelt.

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