Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (Full Version)

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RCdc -> Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 7:43:08 AM)

This is Darcy (climbing onto his soapbox, so be warned.....)

The Archbishop of Cantebury Rowan Williams has said in an interview with BBC Radio 4's World At One programme that the adoption of Islamic Sharia law is unavoidable in the UK.

He goes on to say that the UK has to face up to the fact that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

Full story here.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7232661.stm

Now, call me old fashioned, but as far as I'm concerned the laws of a country are there to be obeyed, not to be cherry-picked selectively as to which ones may or may not suit your lifestyle or religion.

I'm as welcoming and open-minded as anybody when it comes to different cultures, religions, creeds, sexualities, whatever else it may be that defines your individualilty, but I find the notion of changing the laws in this country just because certain members of society do not relate to them to be grossly offensive.

If you don't agree with the laws of a particular country, then the simple answer is to go and live in another one where the legal system is more to your liking. This point of view has nothing to do with whether you are English, or British, or whether you were born here or not, but whether you are willing to conform to the stated laws of a country.

I would never consider living in Saudi Arabia, for example, because I like to consume alcohol, and I respect the fact that outside of certain designated areas, this is forbidden, and punishable, by law over there. So, therefore Saudi isn't the place for me.

There is also the (perhaps slightly paranoid) issue of how far these changes for those who are inconvenienced by certain of our laws will go. Say we allow polygamous marriages (currently illegal under bigamy laws, but nevertheless tolerated, which is another argument for another day) - how long before other laws concerning issues which certain sections of society do not relate to are passed, such as perhaps the repealing of the 1967 Sexual Offences Act, which would have the effect of once again effectively criminalising homosexuality? And then what? Stoning and flogging for adultery? Cutting off hands for shoplifting?

Yes, I'm being extreme and slightly facetious with these examples, but I don't think laws should be changed just because somebody can't relate to them. (I can't relate to having to give up over 40% of my paycheck to the taxman, but I can't see them helping me out on this one. [;)])

What do you think? Should we change laws just because they are inconvenient to somebody's culture and religion? Or should we stand firm that these are the laws of this country, and that if you don't like them then feel free to relocate to somewhere that has a more compatible legal system with your beliefs?

Your friendly neighbourhood Devil's Advocate,
Darcy



meatcleaver -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 7:54:46 AM)

He's talking out of the back of his head. Britain has about 1.5 million muslims, numerically less than Holland which has about a quarter of Britain's population and there is no way Sharia law will be allowed here. In fact if muslims want to really alienate themselves they can demand it. I think the Dutch would deport them all before allowing anything like sharia law.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 8:00:48 AM)

quote:

Darcy
He goes on to say that the UK has to face up to the fact that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

This has been true for an overwhelming majority of the population for years and years and years

I also believe that some Muslim communities in the UK settle their disputes now according to some form of Sharia law.



kittinSol -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 8:11:34 AM)

Do you agree that the Archishop of Canterbury has no clout whatsoever? Hasn't most of what Archishops said over the years been laughed at? Just trying to defuse here.

As the article says "under English law people may devise their own way to settle a dispute in front of an agreed third party as long as both sides agree to the process. Muslim Sharia courts and the Jewish Beth Din which already exist in the UK come into this category." These courts only tend to resolve conflicts that have to do with marriages in the context of the religion in question.

Williams' suggestions are altogether rather vague, so I wouldn't worry about it.



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 8:15:39 AM)

Here in the U.S. we imagine ourselves to have majority rule and inviolable minority rights (in reality its more of a plutocracy with a bait and switch adherence to civil rights that get swapped out for whatever the SCOTUS decides those rights are on a given day).

So I imagine that all that is being suggested is something similar as respects the unique social customs of certain communities in the UK.

But I can see your point. It could lead to all kinds of chaos legally and socially.

But then again, the law is a whore most everywhere anyway...



kittinSol -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 8:18:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

But then again, the law is a whore most everywhere anyway...



Perhaps, but I shudder to think what would come of us in the absence of this imperfect system.



LadyEllen -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 8:25:59 AM)

The laws we have are formulated and approved by a Parliament of representatives chosen by majority choice in designated areas across the country. A proposed law is passed subject to the majority agreement of these representatives that the proposed law would be a good thing. At least, thats how its meant to work.

Thus, there is a mechanism by which Sharia Law could be introduced if in the opinion of our representatives such a system would be a good thing. However, it would require a majority of our representatives to agree. Since it is highly unlikely - at least given our current demographic, that the majority of voters would elect representatives who would propose, let alone agree to Sharia Law, it is equally highly unlikely that such a system could be introduced. Same caveat applies.

There are of course nightmare scenarios by which Sharia Law could be introduced - the conclusion to a vile and bloody religious war for instance - but very, very unlikely, in that believe it or not, most Muslims dont care that much. And there are scenarios where, for instance, certain Islamic majority cities might declare independence what with the UK breaking up, but again its pretty unlikely and more suitable to a work of fiction as a scenario.

The most likely nightmare scenario is the one where Iran gets nuclear weapons, creates through inducement or fear a new Persian Empire, takes control of Suez and so much of our trade, and forces the issue. But again, pretty unlikely given we'd be fairly stupid to allow even the seeds of that scenario.

Inasmuch as Sharia Law is acceptable to the laws derived from the voices of the whole however (ie our law as it is and becomes), I dont see any reason per se why those elements which were compatible could not be pursued in a Sharia court within our system. But then I dont see any reason given such compatibility why our courts would not be held adequate to do the job. And I dont know if there is much that is compatible, so it could be a non starter anyway.

But we must not, in any circumstance, have a situation where we have two systems of law. This would undermine the validity of both systems and also threaten the very nature and existence of our country.

I believe we likely have much to gain from some aspects of Islamic society and culture, but this would be very selective indeed. In the end we likely have things to gain from all the cultures which come here, but purely on a supplementary basis to produce a useful admixture - not by metholodologies which seek or tolerate the destruction of what precedes.

E



Politesub53 -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 8:41:05 AM)

The problem is where does it stop. Muslim fundamentalists want "Sharia Law" introduced to the UK. In Nigeria, they did just that in the northern regions, mostly inhabited by Muslims. The result was that in 2002 a woman was stoned to death for adultery. What would happen if it was a dispute between a Muslim and non Muslim, would either or be abe to claim he didnt recognise the others court ?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 9:38:16 AM)


Welcome to the fruits of "multiculturalism".

Firm



kittinSol -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 10:14:25 AM)

The great majority of Muslims are perfectly peaceful people who have no desire to overtake the laws and institutions of any country. Williams' proposition is presposterous: it looks as though he was instigating a debate.

It's like saying that the Christian-right are trying to do the same in  the States, when... oh but hang on... they are. [8|]



RealityLicks -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 10:36:19 AM)

Reading the article, it seem that the Bishop is talking about allowing Muslims to rule on their disputes in the same way that Orthodox Jews currently do.

I'm not a Muslim and I don't plan on becoming one, so I'm pretty relaxed about it.

Swap "Muslim" for "Pagan" and it actually sounds quite New Age.



greyangelus -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 10:43:59 AM)

If the matter of primacy of law was definitively settled, it could work.

The problem with most religous laws that I have verse secular common law is that while something is illegal under one set, it is quite legal under the other.

So which law has primacy over the other?  Sharia law is heavily biased in favor of men;  if a women loses her case fairly, what happens if she chooses to pursue the case using common law? The laws butt heads at that point.

If these religous courts and laws were used to settle disputes, I would argue that the decision must also be fully announced to and accepted by a court of common law.  More importantly it must be stated by BOTH parties that the decision of the religous court is fully acceptable to them.



RealityLicks -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 10:49:52 AM)

That sounds like a sensible approach, GA.  Another advantage is in settling disputes over finances - Muslim anti-usury restrictions might force the standard courts into complicated machinations to rule in some cases, to preclude precedents being set. Being able to pass them elsewhere and free up court time benefits everyone.



Raechard -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 12:49:29 PM)

What with that other religious figure talking about no go areas and now this idiot, who has courted controversy since starting the job, talking about a future UK adopting Islamic law it’s obvious what game they are playing. I just hope no one falls for it. I beg for those days when no one cared who the Arch Bishop of Canterbury was.
 
 
There would be civil war before any form of religious law is adopted in the UK. It’s not like we haven’t fought these wars in our past and stuck people’s heads on spikes. Separation of church and state was the lesson we learned from such wars; it is crucial and as the law is a state mechanism for order it should hardly be based on religious ideas. I would go further and say all religious contexts should be dropped from current UK laws as they are riddled with by the power of God type bollocks. You go to court and you hold up a bible why? Apparently when being sworn in for jury service you can read out an atheist type speech instead these days.
 
 
One law for everyone based on the beliefs of the majority but also protecting the rights of the minority. The interesting argument in law is deciding what minority rights are right.[:D]



NorthernGent -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 3:52:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The Archbishop of Cantebury Rowan Williams has said in an interview with BBC Radio 4's World At One programme that the adoption of Islamic Sharia law is unavoidable in the UK.



Did he explain why a secular nation with a long, proud history of Liberalism would suddenly pay attention to a mosque?

Unavoidable my arse.

Edited to add: as far as I'm aware, the vast majority of Muslims are happy enough living according to the laws of the land.



NorthernGent -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 3:54:48 PM)

Deleted



farglebargle -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 3:56:15 PM)

I'm reminded why a fundamental SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE is a Good Thing.




Estring -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 4:01:19 PM)

This is what happens when you appease evil instead of standing up to it. Europe is doomed.



NorthernGent -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 4:03:42 PM)

To be fair, Farglebargle, it doesn't sound like him. I find it hard to believe he would say something so utterly ridiculous.

Either way, he's not an elected representative so he shouldn't be entertained one iota.



kittinSol -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/7/2008 4:05:24 PM)

If you're saying all religions are evil, I might agree with you.



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