RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 7:48:13 AM)

RealityLicks made an important point: everyone's merrily bashing at the entire Muslim population when it's the head of the Church of England who proposed these changes in the law.

An immense majority of Muslims have lived in the United Kingdom for three, four generations. There is a violent current in Islam at the moment which I understand we are weary of, but I promise you that nearly ALL Muslims are worried about it with the rest of the world. 

Rushing into sweeping generalisations about 'Muslims' will do nobody any good but to ostracise an entire portion of the population. A large majority of UK Muslims do NOT want Sharia law: why are we ignoring them so blatantly?

The UK is a relatively stable society but I fear that throwing all Muslims together in the basket with the fundamentalists, the extremists and the other terrorists will do nothing but alienate them from the rest of society.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 7:56:47 AM)

I disagree absolutely that Muslims are being bashed.
Its the at best dangerous naivety and at worst plain stupidity of Williams that is under the hammer



RealityLicks -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 7:57:21 AM)

Everyone getting in a state every time Islam is mentioned just makes it look like the extremists have a point, to young Muslims. 



RealityLicks -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 8:05:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Islamic philosophy is basically puritan restricive intolerant and of course patriarchal.
I'm sure you know what the penalty for apostasy is ?
I just cant recall the name but I know well the attitudes that many West Indian youth have towards homosexuals and towards Asians which feelings are reciprocated in spades lol.
Just remind me who the Kurds hate is it the Turks ?
Somalis....everybody seems to have it in for them.
The Greek Cypriots despise the Turkish Cypriots and vice versa.
Would I be right in saying that a Hindu is a Muslim's best friend.
Not to mention the increase in anti semitism that has been reported.



Please show me where you critique Willams here.  Why is the Beth Din acceptable but not the Sharia?



RCdc -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 8:20:08 AM)

This is Darcy

As Seeks points out, this is not an attack on Islam or Muslims, this is a defence of this country's legal system.

Very different.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 8:23:09 AM)

RealityLicks:
First: are you a reporter for the Independant or the Guardian ? You have picked out a post that was a reply to LadyE's point that immigration has made the UK more tolerant. Please pay attention.
Incidently you must have known that 'cos you edited out the "absolute nonsense" part.


Second: in an earlier post I said that for purely religious or social matters Muslims should be free to have their Sharia based tribunals but absolutely nothing that those tribunals decide should be outside UK law.

I have never said the I think Beth Din is acceptabe only that  I believe their jurisdiction does not transcend UK law. If it does it is wrong and such actions should be stopped.

Several of my posts have pointed my finger squarly at Williams.
He is so misguided he should resign IMO.
In fact if he carries on as he is doing the Anglican Church will fracture and almost certainly an African prelate, it thats the right word, will take the top job.

By the way stop alluding to your opinion that I should be killed !



LadyEllen -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 8:51:12 AM)

We'll have to disagree on that then Seeks.

But consider this. I very much doubt that in the world pre mass migration I and some likeminded friends could have negotiated with the Forestry Commission to use the woods near here for multiple rituals and weddings according to the Asatru religion - to include naked flames (absolutely banned normally).

If it had been 1955, we'd have been told in no uncertain terms that "evil scum like us" should be hanged, still less would we have gotten anywhere near the woods. In fact I'd wager we'd be arrested just for being anything other than CofE and anywhere other than in church. And given a good beating to encourage us to change to the one true religion.

As it was, we performed lots of these events - in full view, and had lots of non-participants, passersby, very interested and observing us with respect.

Had it been 1955, and we had despite our arrest and beating carried out such an event, I would bet right now that any passersby would have shown us no respect whatever, and we may have received another beating, another arrest and another police beating.

Yes, some groups that have come here have not adjusted perhaps as well as we might like them to have. But that I'm afraid is down to our divisive form of multi-culturalism which encourages and promotes difference rather than inclusion. In the meantime, many, including the indigenous population have adjusted well and the presence of so much variety has served us well in removing the idea that white Anglo Saxon Church of England middle class is good, and everything and everyone else is a villain.

E 



kittinSol -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 9:01:43 AM)

Darcy, the knee-jerk reaction to Williams' suggestions was to argue against Muslims in general; I've looked at the press online, and shan't bore you with a plethora of links.




Aubre -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 9:05:32 AM)

If want to live under Sharia, move to a place that recognizes it. The world needs less Sharia, not more.
I agree with KittenSol, I expect most of the Muslims that moved to Britain didn't want to be held to Sharia.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 9:48:53 AM)

LadyE: it may well be true that our legal system and the upper echelon authorities who apply it are more tolerant now than in the 1950's but my point is that mass immigration has not brought that about.
I suspect you know that as well as I do.

The underlying changes were set in motion, introduced as I recall by Woy Jenkins, about the mid 60's before immigration had gathered any real momentum.
When it became apparent what was happening the authorities panicked and at least two bills 1968 and 1971 attempting to limit immigration were introduced.

By the way as we speak the rationalisation of what Williams really meant has started.
Take too long to explain....but its happening lol



LadyEllen -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 9:51:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The underlying changes were set in motion, introduced as I recall by Woy Jenkins, about the mid 60's before immigration had gathered any real momentum.


OK. I'm all ears - convince me.

E



RCdc -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 11:14:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Darcy, the knee-jerk reaction to Williams' suggestions was to argue against Muslims in general; I've looked at the press online, and shan't bore you with a plethora of links.



This is Darcy

Agreed kittin - I was referring to my own post, but should have made this clear. The general media backlash does seem to be somewhat xenophobic in nature, but I can't, sadly, say I'm surprised.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 12:11:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
claims that it was not immigration that liberlised the UK.

LadyE says, OK. I'm all ears - convince me.

The panic I mentioned
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5563
quote:

The article examines the 1966–70 Labour government's decision to withdraw the right of entry from Asians with British passports who were driven out of Kenya by its ‘Africanization’ policies


The liberalising measures.
http://www.pinktriangle.org.uk/glh/223/jenkins.html
quote:

Although his time at the Home Office lasted less than two years (1965-7), Jenkins was the most actively reformist home secretary of the mid-twentieth century, modernising the criminal justice system and lending his active support to private members’ bills liberalising the homosexuality and abortion laws.

http://www.100welshheroes.com/en/biography/royjenkins
quote:

 Divorce was difficult to obtain and plays required the approval of the Lord Chamberlain before they could be performed. As Home Secretary between 1965 and 1967, Roy Jenkins swept all these restrictions away as he delivered the “Permissive Society” for which he had argued in an influential pamphlet of the 1950’s


http://www.paroleboard.gov.uk/about/history_of_the_parole_board/.
quote:

Parole was first introduced by the Criminal Justice Act 1967 as part of a package of measures promoting the rehabilitation of prisoners


Is that enough "me duck".?




LadyEllen -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 4:28:56 PM)

Not by a long way Seeks I'm sorry - yes I can see amendments to divorce, homosexuality, abortion etc as an influence, but not as the cause of a far more tolerant society.

E



Raechard -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 4:39:03 PM)

Someone asked why Muslims are being targeted when they didn’t even ask for this. This Dr acts the foolish public speaker but everything he says is for a certain effect he desires. He probably isn’t allowed to say “Stay faithful to Christianity because all our current laws are consistent with that, better the devil you know.” So he has to find another way of instilling fear into people by using such language as ‘inevitable’ like we can all steer the good ship UK away from Islamic law by reaffirming our non existent indigenous faith. Maybe I’m a cynic but I tend to think someone with a doctorate could have predicted and so planned the exact outcome of such a speech. These people use words as their weapons for the age old wars between faiths.



Aneirin -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 4:49:52 PM)

Since the utterance of such controversial words by the Arch Bishop, whom I understand as a deep thinking man, I have heard so much. Ranging from his resignation, to increased hatred of all things Islam.

I am not Christian, but I accept this country I was born in and live in, though a multicultural society, is largely Christian and laws made in the past reflect Christian beliefs. I have no problem with this at all, it does not prevent me practising my faith, therefore I can see no reason why another of another religion cannot submit to the law that already exists, prior to their arrival or birth in this country.

Basically, tow the line or go, everyone has an option. Or is it that a person's spirituality is on a par with their commerce interests?

If that is the case, which is of most importance, their beliefs, or their interest in bettering themselves through commerce?



kitttty -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 5:28:43 PM)

quote:


An immense majority of Muslims have lived in the United Kingdom for three, four generations. There is a violent current in Islam at the moment which I understand we are weary of, but I promise you that nearly ALL Muslims are worried about it with the rest of the world. 


Well, that sounds nice but it simply is not true. The most common sweeping generalization people make about muslim immigrant communities is that most of them are not fans of islamic fundementalism.

Sadly, Saudi Arabia's decades of pouring billions of dollars into recruiting, training and exporting extremist Imams has taken its toll on the Muslim psyche, even in the west.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml

40% support shariah law based on one poll

http://www.guardian.co.uk/islam/story/0,,1362591,00.html

60% support it based on another

If the majority of muslims in the UK could not be called extremist, then a very large minority could be.

It is not the case that nearly all muslims are weary of Islamic fundementalism. It is the case that nearly all muslims do nothing to combat extreme fundementalist influences, even if they themselves are not strict practitioners of Islam.




Stephann -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 5:31:45 PM)

kitttty,

How do you feel that stacks up against Christian fundamentalism and the impact it's had on our own legal system throughout the past few hundred years?

I'm fine with contrasting 'better' verses 'worse' but only when it's acknowleged that our 'better' isn't confused with 'good.'  Our current system of "revenge as justice" is little better than the Muslim form.

Stephan



kitttty -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 5:41:58 PM)

quote:


How do you feel that stacks up against Christian fundamentalism and the impact it's had on our own legal system throughout the past few hundred years?


There are no christian theocracies today. There has not been one for more than a century. And don't kid yourself. Dubya banning funding for embryonic stem cell research does not a theocracy make.

Clearly christian fundementalism has been more influential than muslim laws on our society. We are a majority christian society. Religiosity has experienced a bit of a surge in the past few decades, but hardly one that could be compared to what has happened in the muslim world.

quote:

I'm fine with contrasting 'better' verses 'worse' but only when it's acknowleged that our 'better' isn't confused with 'good.' Our current system of "revenge as justice" is little better than the Muslim form.


You're ill informed then. Even when we have revenge justice, we're still much more just. Shariah law is not only based on revenge justice (like eye for an eye), it is often based on exacting punishments which are far worse than the crime. Ex, yes they do cut your hand off for stealing a loaf of bread in parts of the muslim world. And yes, fundementalist muslim people understand that it is far worse to lose a hand than a loaf of bread. They just believe it is worth making a few thieves sacrifice their hands so that more people are so afraid to steal so that almost no one does it. In reality, this isn't quite what happens anyways.

And yes, if you ask those 40% of people in the UK whether or not they agree with cutting the hand off of a thief, they will almost all tell you that they agree with the principle of using an unduly harsh punishment on one person to deter other people. They probably understand that there isn't going to be any hand cutting in the UK, but people that agree with shariah law actually do agree with the kind of thinking it is based on.



Politesub53 -> RE: Sharia law 'unavoidable' in UK says Archbishop (2/8/2008 5:50:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

If the majority of muslims in the UK could not be called extremist, then a very large minority could be.

It is not the case that nearly all muslims are weary of Islamic fundementalism. It is the case that nearly all muslims do nothing to combat extreme fundementalist influences, even if they themselves are not strict practitioners of Islam.




Just becuase Muslims dont all act against fundementalists, it doesnt prove they are not weary of it. You posted a link saying 60% if Muslims supported Sharia law, but did you actually read it. It reads to me as if they put British law first.

Some 61% wanted Islamic courts - operating on sharia principles - "so long as the penalties did not contravene British law".

The bottom line says it all, and its in your quoted source.



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