RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars

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RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 6:06:13 AM

BlackPhx

Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline

For me there are only 2 states, Collared and uncollared. Collared should not happen until both (all) people involved are certain that they are going to walk this path for a long time together or at least intend to. It doesn't have to lead to marriage. It doesn't even have to have a symbol that hangs around your neck, wrist, ankle or whatever. That Collar goes around your heart, mind and soul (Dom and Sub) or should long before it ever materializes as an object. That is why it is so hard to remove once it is on, walking away should never be easy if there is a committment.

Consideration Collars are not the same as a Training Collar
Consideration Collars are not the same as an Engagement Ring
Consideration Collars are not the same as a Protection Collar.

An Engagement ring means one thing, that two people at least for the nonce feel that they would like to walk through life together as a wedded couple.
A Protection collar means little in life for unless you are with the person in real life when they attend clubs, munches etc. you can't protect them from a blessed thing.
A Training collar means about the same thing as it does for training a Dog. It is a signal that this is the time to pay attention and learn. (No offence meant to anyone). It doen't have to stay around the neck and can be put on during periods of scening.

To me a Consideration Collar is little more than an affectation, a placeholder if you will on a table. Until the persons who are involved give it another meaning it is nothing more than vaporwear. If they give it another meaning, then it becomes real.

Your Mileage May Of Course Vary Widely....

poenkitten

(in reply to BlackPhx)

Post #: 61

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 6:07:30 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

read about a past discussion re Old Guard here

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to BlackPhx)

Post #: 62

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 6:10:21 AM

lilabbotsfordgrl

Posts: 140
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

Cool ideas OP :)
I think people can have collars for any state or occasion they like. Why others here need to say "it's either on or off, nothing else!" like there's something magical or official about circular objects symbolizing whatever it is people believe them to symbolize. We should lighten up.

(in reply to ThundersCry)

Post #: 63

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 8:44:56 AM

LadyLolly

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/21/2005
Status: offline

NO, the issue I have is with not only discounting, but rudely attacking those that offer information and opinions based on thier own experience and knowledge because you, and those like you, have somehow in a few short years amassed the sum knowledge of the universe. It's a punk mentality and when and if you grow up you may come to recognize it for what it is also. Glory in being ill mannered and rude, pups tend to thinks thats cool but only because they haven't learned better social skills.

Obviously the knowledge in your case did not come from reading comprehension as I stated 15 years freestyle D/s before the 90's - you weren't even a gleam in daddy's eye at that time.

Frankly I'm glad that there is digging, research, and sharing on the forum. We never stop learning as long as we have an open mind. What I take issue with is the vicious attempts to demean and shut up others with contributions from thier own experiences - whether you personally happen to agree with what is offered or not, whether you personally happen to be able to find it written somewhere or not. Not all knowledge is captured in typeface. You may be a legend in your own mind, but you certainly are not what you claim I and others are attempting to present ourselves as, the definative authority on everything.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 64

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 9:08:28 AM

LadyLolly

Posts: 140
Joined: 5/21/2005
Status: offline

Des,
With my own personal experience will disagree. You are right that OG was brought back to the US by veterans in the WW's, and was initially only open to white men, predominately gay or bi. How ever, by the 90's acceptance, openess and teachings were beginning to be extended to leather wymen, persons of color and to some extent the pansexual community, what some call New Guard, Next Guard.or Leather. This was not solely a sexual or BDSM domain but also included Master/slave dynamics and mentorship. So while there may be very few origional OG left alive today, those they taught and shared their legacy with do still exist.

(smile) if your exposure was all about sex maybe you just have/had a really cute butt ;>

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 65

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 10:18:19 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skully7000

not all of its horseshit.
In the leather clubs my girlfriend grew up in. you received a training collar that was NOT leather and during the training you were not allowed to wear leather unless the dominant told you to. your dominant had the collar made for you..or made it themself or at least designed it. not just went to a store and purchased it.

listen I wasn't there I can't speak for anything. but you should know by now that history is a very subjective thing. so there are few books written. that just means you got a few peoples inputs. hundreds/thousands are being left out. people/ways of life that went mostly undocumented.
there is no one way. no definitive "this is the only way to be Old Guard" but I do take offense to you calling it "utter horseshit when it sounds pretty dead on to what was described to me by my friends and family.some of whom have been in the scene for the last 25-35 years.

This is just a minor point that is a pet peeve that I'm sure I'm the only person has but old guard is post ww-2 leatherfolk. By 1978 (which is 30 years ago) it was in at least the second generation of leather people and no longer old guard.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Skully7000)

Post #: 66

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 10:21:36 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLolly

Obviously the knowledge in your case did not come from reading comprehension as I stated 15 years freestyle D/s before the 90's - you weren't even a gleam in daddy's eye at that time.

Ummm 2008 - 15 = 1993.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to LadyLolly)

Post #: 67

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 10:52:03 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

This is just a minor point that is a pet peeve that I'm sure I'm the only person has but old guard is post ww-2 leatherfolk.

No. You aren't the only one.

Everytime I see a hetero claim to be "Old Guard" I want to scold them for not knowing what they are talking about. Along with the timeline thing. Don't claim to be something you aren't.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 68

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:04:17 AM

ThunderRoad

Posts: 231
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

I've seen quite often subs who define their submission by a collar -- any collar. Sometimes a "consideration" or "training" collar is just to give the sub a tangible item to address that need for a tangible item. It means whatever they determine it actually means, in the end.

That said, we've used protection collars many times when taking newbie subs out to clubs or munches or other events. It's generally to A) help them into some kind of a mindset that works for them and B) it keeps some of the predators away. We always have a three-way discussion about what exactly it's is for and what we feel our role as "protector" is.

I think, no matter what, we see far too many "velcro" collars out there (especially online). People who put them on and rip them off with no attention paid to what it means to the other person. Even if it was just a weekend D/s booty call, it shows a general lack of respect and desire to fit into the role they define if they just rip the collar we gave them for the time we were together off.

On a personal note, we do consider collars akin to a wedding ring, because it weds that part of ourselves to each other with promises and commitments. Even "lesser" collars still carry with it a two-way (or more way) commitment and shouldn't be abused.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 69

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:05:37 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Protection collars are one of the funniest things.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to ThunderRoad)

Post #: 70

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:10:18 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

LadyLolly,

Your post is horsehit too. Which authors exactly support your view? I know Jay Wiseman personally and his writings show you to be ignorant, as do Guy Baldwin's and Jack Rinnella's. So who exactly are you refering to? Either name the books, post a link to the Leather Archive, or go hang out with our other resident know it all "Lady".

Also, by claiming "these old guard in this city and this date did this" you are showing that there wasn't a monolithic "one true way" that any of the gay leathermen did things.

Also, old guard is pre 1970's gay men PERIOD...you can follow their traditions (whatever you want to pretend they are) but you cannot BE old guard. Its like saying that people at Renne Faires are Midievil, or that white people who follow American Indian traditions are "indians".

(in reply to LadyLolly)

Post #: 71

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:17:52 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

Beyond all that..... why does the.." Old Guard"..... have to be right? Who says so?
Who says I, or anyone else. must acknowledge it as correct?

Jeff

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 72

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:19:19 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Well, I have the notion that the Old Guard doesn't place periods in the middle of sentences, so there is some inescapable logic for you right there, chief.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 73

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:21:39 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, I have the notion that the Old Guard doesn't place periods in the middle of sentences, so there is some inescapable logic for you right there, chief.

Ron

I reject that premise , pal

Jeff

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 74

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:38:52 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Once upon a timesy or something like that, (I feel like I should be speaking pig Latin or something.) some people had a group, others wrote a few books, They tried to describe, name and claim BDSM participants. Never mind men beating women asses, with all variations and sexes, until they reached a euphoric high had been going on for thousands of years.

It may be light spanking, heavy whipping or extreme torture that gets the sub into the euphoric state and I bet whatever was there before any group tried to claim the practices, could only smile as we do today. There are many ways to do it. It kind of reminds me of a national organization trying to get everyone to pay dues even though the umbrella fits over 3 beaches and lots of people pissing in the ocean and wind.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 2/13/2008 11:41:03 AM >

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 75

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 11:45:32 AM

XiaoTheOwl

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/31/2008
From: Another plane of existance
Status: offline

IMO, A collar, whether you title it 'protective', training', or 'consideration', is just a collar...
A material object... Same as an engagement ring...

These material items are meaningless, unless the giver/receiver makes it meaningful, through actions showing their sincerity to the other...

_____________________________

Thoughts, are potential actions... Question yourself.

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 76

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 12:38:42 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
LadyLolly,

Your post is horsehit too. Which authors exactly support your view?

I would be willing to accept a lineage of trainers or educators. One of Lady Lolly's positions is that not everything known is written down. Fair enough. I'm a magician (the "fake" kind -- yet another reason I'm not weal) and I've been taught things that to my knowledge have never been written down. But I know who taught them to me, and I know who they thought originated them.

Besides, with something like stage or birthday party magic, there's a reason to have secrets. If using collars CORRECTLY is so all-fired important, what's the big secret? Refute the authors in SM and MR's posts. There are plenty of books in the world that are full of BS. Lady Lolly, who taught you these things? Who were their instructors? Names, dates, lineage of information.

I don't own any leather anything, and I'm dating a raw foodie so I'm not likely to buy anything leather soon. I've never bothered to look at "leather history" before. But in the last few months, it sure seems as though there's a lot of fiction masquerading as historical fact, and I'm ready to develop an informed opinion. As of right now, DesFIP, SimplyMichael and MadRabbit sure seem to be standing on earth, and everyone else is on a house of cards. Please demonstrate why I am wrong in this assessment.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 77

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 12:41:16 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

In the effort of not hijacking a thread for once... Red you will have mail in a few moments.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 78

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 12:50:42 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

and everyone else is on a house of cards.

Really?

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 79

RE: Clarity and Consideration Collars - 2/13/2008 12:53:53 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

Not you, Katy. Everyone but the most important person

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 80

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