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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 6:19:28 AM

candigirlll

Posts: 32
Joined: 4/22/2005
Status: offline

what i stated was not rude not misinformed... it is the truth... you need to get a grip this is a forum where many people have different opinions and i happen to think people who think they are Gorean are Nuts.. it is funny i have never went into a Busniess and heard someone speaking third person... like hi welcome to McDonalds may a girl take your order... and ALL Gor BS is roleplay...lol did you not read the books ... you have a right to your opinion and i respect the fact that you think i am rude.. as you must respect the fact that i think have read one too many Bad BDSM Books lol....

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 21

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 6:48:45 AM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candigirlll

what i stated was not rude not misinformed... it is the truth... you need to get a grip this is a forum where many people have different opinions and i happen to think people who think they are Gorean are Nuts.. it is funny i have never went into a Busniess and heard someone speaking third person... like hi welcome to McDonalds may a girl take your order... and ALL Gor BS is roleplay...lol did you not read the books ... you have a right to your opinion and i respect the fact that you think i am rude.. as you must respect the fact that i think have read one too many Bad BDSM Books lol....

What you do not seem to understand about opinions is that because you hold one does not make it a fact. Because you are under the misimpression that people living a Gorean lifestyle all walk around talking in the third person does not mean that they do. Because you think being a kajira is in any way about roleplay or BDSM will not keep me from having to do the laundry or clean the kitchen today, or about a million other quite real, non-BDSM related duties. Hopefully when you get a better grip on these forums, you will understand how to express your opinions as what they are, instead of expressing that you know better than someone else how they live their life.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to candigirlll)

Post #: 22

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 7:46:43 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candigirlll

This is true but i am speaking of how the Old Guard ways were adopted into other house holds as far as the strictness...

You mean they adopted something with which they had no experience? Sorta like people adopting the modes and mannerisms of a fictional book?

Yet one is acceptable and another is not?

I'd strongly suggest reading http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/manners/rinella.html
to find out a bit about "the old guard" as it really existed.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to candigirlll)

Post #: 23

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 7:57:47 AM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candigirlll
it is funny i have never went into a Busniess and heard someone speaking third person... like hi welcome to McDonalds may a girl take your order...

Holy crap that's funny. "Welcome to McDonalds may a girl take your order..." It's priceless.

(in reply to candigirlll)

Post #: 24

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 10:23:44 AM

Soulhuntre

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
I'd strongly suggest reading http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/manners/rinella.html to find out a bit about "the old guard" as it really existed.

I went off and read it - and I have read it before. I sort of agree. I think one of the problems with the current trend of "debunking" the "Old Guard" is that all the debunkers have different straw men they are trying to debunk :)

While it is correct to say that the "Old Guard" never existed as a monolithic hierarchy that many claim it did, the reality is that there were certain customs that were a natural outgrowth of the social climate of the times and were widespread, and they were different than the underpinnings of what came after.

The term "Old Guard" in almost any field of endeavour means basically "those who did this before the last biug paradigm shift". In that way, the "Old Guard" int he leather world is alwyas changing. Currently the 60's gay male leather subculture is still effectively the "old guard" but that is changing.

Soon the "old guard" will be the hyper SSC, newbie packet sending, "sub protection" giving spanker / fluff community that held prominece in BDSM for about 15 years starting in the mid 80's. Things are already swinging to a view that is more open to extreme play, more understanding of service (instead of romance) based relationships and so on.

The pendulum, you see, keeps swinging :)

The gay male subculture absolutely understood, by and large, the concept of service based BDSM. When the BDSM culture opened up it inhereted a lot of kinky hetero people who were basicaly still romantics at heart and tried to bring that basis into BDSM. It worked for a while but now the subculture has been widely exposed for long enough that it is attracting large numbers of hets who are looking into service, instead of kink.

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 25

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 3:16:21 PM

wolfinside

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

"consnsual non-consent"

God lord, it's no wonder outsiders think we (people in this lifestyle) are all f-ing nuts.

There is no such thing.

If you consent, you consent.

If you are consenting to have someone do things to you while you struggle or cry or fight, or whatever, it is still consent.

Maybe we can come up with other buzz words that will confuse outsiders and insiders alike.

This reminds me of the thread on "hard limits" verses "limits" verses "soft limits"

Lets all continue to make the language so broad and undefined for this lifestyle that it no longer means anything at all, or is understandable to anyone in it. (or outside of it)

GRrrrrrrrr

(sorry, I'm grumpy today, I'm pent up, cause I haven't spanked a naked ass or bitten a woman in about six months and I can't stand it anymore)

Wolf

< Message edited by wolfinside -- 10/15/2005 3:34:56 PM >

(in reply to Soulhuntre)

Post #: 26

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 3:20:24 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
(sorry, I'm grumpy today, I'm pent up, cause I haven't spanked a naked ass or bitten a woman in about six months and I can't stand it anymore)

The attitude and a lack of partner may go together. Maybe you could express yourself in a less "forceful" manner?

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 27

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 3:29:12 PM

wolfinside

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
(sorry, I'm grumpy today, I'm pent up, cause I haven't spanked a naked ass or bitten a woman in about six months and I can't stand it anymore)

The attitude and a lack of partner may go together. Maybe you could express yourself in a less "forceful" manner?

No. When I have strong opinions I will express them within the boundries of the code of conduct on this site.

But perhaps you can make a comment next time about one of my posts without making it a personal attack on me. (do ya think)

Are personal attacks ok on this website?

Just curious.

I know one thing, personal attacks at distance on the internet are certainly cowardly.

Please travel to where I live and get within four feet of me, look me in the eyes and say what you said. I would respect that. But, I don't think you would have the courage to do that.

Wolf

< Message edited by wolfinside -- 10/15/2005 3:31:41 PM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 28

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 3:43:59 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside

"consnsual non-consent"

God lord, it's no wonder outsiders think we (people in this lifestyle) are all f-ing nuts.

There is no such thing.

If you consent, you consent.

If you are consenting to have someone do things to you while you struggle or cry or fight, or whatever, it is still consent.

Maybe we can come up with other buzz words that will confuse outsiders and insiders alike.

This reminds me of the thread on "hard limits" verses "limits" verses "soft limits"

Lets all continue to make the language so broad and undefined for this lifestyle that it no longer means anything at all, or is understandable to anyone in it. (or outside of it)

GRrrrrrrrr

(sorry, I'm grumpy today, I'm pent up, cause I haven't spanked a naked ass or bitten a woman in about six months and I can't stand it anymore)

Wolf

Well, I am not pent up, but I do agree with you. Consent is consent.
However, many people enjoy using the analagy or 'consensualnonconsent' as it allows them to get into that certain 'head space' they need and desire to be in. If it works for them - good for them.
I do think that it is subjects/phrases like that, that does work against wiitwd however. I doubt that people outside of wiitwd will be able to get their head around issues like this, just like they will be unable to get around the whole 'rape play' issues... or edge play or any other numerous names/labels people use. I think that the main thing is that we can communicate what we mean exactly when we use these terms on an individual basis - much like the whole sub/slave debate that rages.
If we communicate the label and discuss it within the single dynamic of the moment and can make ourselves clear, then that is the main concern. I think it is impossible to communicate with people who have no interest and therefore no understanding on the concept - as it would be like myself trying to describe my fetish for music to someone who has no interest in it at all.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 29

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 3:51:32 PM

wolfinside

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

My point was, that when we (as a community) get comfortable with using oxymorons like "consentual non-consent" it confuses everyone and gets silly at some point.

More importantly, when something goes wrong and the paramedics are called, and the word "non-consent" gets used no matter what other words are used in front of it. (including the word "consensual" as in "consensual non-consent") I absolutely garrantee that you will wind up standing tall before a judge and jury trying to explain how it could be consentual and yet "non-consentual".

Believe me, in the real world, words mean something. They have definitions that make sense.

You can string together words anyway you want. Like say: "he was a very lively dead man" but it doesn't mean it makes any real sense or is understandable.

And no judge and jury is going to buy it. because the phrase "non-consent" is going to be the one that stands out and sticks in their head.

I will say again, it is confusing. And understanding ourselves is important, and how can we do that when we pervert the language so?

And what's worse is that it further skews public perception against us as rapists and murderers.

I don't like it. Should anyone?

Wolf

< Message edited by wolfinside -- 10/15/2005 3:57:32 PM >

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 30

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 4:03:35 PM

ownedjulia

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

That's the exact opposite of how I understand and use the words "consensual non-consent." I use the words to mean that within the larger context of the relationship she consents to my authority, even though she often doesn't consent to my actions at the moment.

A safeword or some kind of opt-out would defeat consensual non-consent. The whole point is she doesn't like a lot of what I do - and yet she loves that I do it. Does that make sense? It's sort of paradoxical, but it only works between us if she knows I will do things, by force if required, that sometimes she doesn't want.

That is exactly put, perfectly how I like things in my relationship with Master.

~ Elektra

quote:

relationship

Thirded.

i HATE some of things i am made to do.

Yet i LOVE the fact that i AM made to do them. The fact that he is asserting his authority. taken what is right even KNOWING a hate it. Wow. What a rush!

_____________________________

~julia
owned slave and proud of it!

(in reply to ElektraUkM)

Post #: 31

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 5:17:22 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I agree with this. The phrase never made any sense to me either, and it's bound to be misunderstood by the kind of people who want to fry us all anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside

My point was, that when we (as a community) get comfortable with using oxymorons like "consentual non-consent" it confuses everyone and gets silly at some point.

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 32

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 5:20:38 PM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

This sort of thing is controversial - you'll have some people wringing their hands over this relationship model, sure that it is abuse cloaked in a type of BDSM vernacular. Others get it.

Works for me and mine :-)

Consent was given. It was a broad stroke 'anything' consent - but it was consent nonetheless.

Obviously (I think) I didn't meet her, collar her and say 'you're mine and what you used to own is mine, forever and ever amen'. There was a process where had she wanted to, in the beginning, she could have removed herself from this situation.

D (owner of j)

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 33

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 5:26:29 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Thing is - in wiitwd, your not going to get everyone to agree on a set protocol or label or anything because BDSM is essentially a very selfish subject.

I think what people could do is try and realise that labels are helpful, but not a means to an end. I hate labels, but that still makes me a 'label disliker' which in itself is a label - so its an oxymoron. Yes, there are set definitions to different things, but depending on the context, the country, the perspective, the composition... then those definitions change. I agree, that the 'consent' will be lost when up against the 'nonconsent' in legal terms, and I have no idea or suggestion on how that will be overcome, other than time passing - and the way we present ourselves physically and mentally, not just the way we say things.

Words are confusing. Even in outside wiitwd, words are misused or misunderstood each day by many people. Only when people learn to hear when they listen will that alter. And who is going to accept that realisation?

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 34

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 6:38:56 PM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside

My point was, that when we (as a community) get comfortable with using oxymorons like "consentual non-consent" it confuses everyone and gets silly at some point.

More importantly, when something goes wrong and the paramedics are called, and the word "non-consent" gets used no matter what other words are used in front of it. (including the word "consensual" as in "consensual non-consent") I absolutely garrantee that you will wind up standing tall before a judge and jury trying to explain how it could be consentual and yet "non-consentual".

Believe me, in the real world, words mean something. They have definitions that make sense.

You can string together words anyway you want. Like say: "he was a very lively dead man" but it doesn't mean it makes any real sense or is understandable.

And no judge and jury is going to buy it. because the phrase "non-consent" is going to be the one that stands out and sticks in their head.

I will say again, it is confusing. And understanding ourselves is important, and how can we do that when we pervert the language so?

And what's worse is that it further skews public perception against us as rapists and murderers.

I don't like it. Should anyone?

Wolf

-You are confusing contradiction with paradox.

-"She gave me consent" isn't a legally acceptable defense for criminal activity - we all know that. It has nothing to do with whether the phrase is clear, effective writing - your comment is irrelevant to the discussion of whether the words mean something.

-"Consensual non-consent" means something - that's why the phrase is used. Usage is de facto validation in language.

-Judges and juries may or may not care about consensual non-consent - irrelevant to your thesis that the words are meaningless. If all you are saying is "consensual non-consent" is dangerous and you don't want other people to practice it, fine, I pray you shut up because bitching about other people's kinks is stupid, dense, boring, obnoxious, worthless, fatuous, arrogant, pathetic and did I mention stupid and boring?

-Your bitching about how dangerous consensual non-consent is makes it abundantly clear that the words do mean something, you understand what the words mean, and just don't like what they express. If the words really confused you, how can you object so strongly and repeatedly to the concept?

-All I get out of your post is that other people's choices piss you off. Great - get used to being powerless over other people for, oh, ever.

Seriously, bitching and twisting your panties over other adult's choices is just asinine.

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 35

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 6:44:03 PM

wolfinside

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside

My point was, that when we (as a community) get comfortable with using oxymorons like "consentual non-consent" it confuses everyone and gets silly at some point.

More importantly, when something goes wrong and the paramedics are called, and the word "non-consent" gets used no matter what other words are used in front of it. (including the word "consensual" as in "consensual non-consent") I absolutely garrantee that you will wind up standing tall before a judge and jury trying to explain how it could be consentual and yet "non-consentual".

Believe me, in the real world, words mean something. They have definitions that make sense.

You can string together words anyway you want. Like say: "he was a very lively dead man" but it doesn't mean it makes any real sense or is understandable.

And no judge and jury is going to buy it. because the phrase "non-consent" is going to be the one that stands out and sticks in their head.

I will say again, it is confusing. And understanding ourselves is important, and how can we do that when we pervert the language so?

And what's worse is that it further skews public perception against us as rapists and murderers.

I don't like it. Should anyone?

Wolf

-You are confusing contradiction with paradox.

-"She gave me consent" isn't a legally acceptable defense for criminal activity - we all know that. It has nothing to do with whether the phrase is clear, effective writing - your comment is irrelevant to the discussion of whether the words mean something.

-"Consensual non-consent" means something - that's why the phrase is used. Usage is de facto validation in language.

-Judges and juries may or may not care about consensual non-consent - irrelevant to your thesis that the words are meaningless. If all you are saying is "consensual non-consent" is dangerous and you don't want other people to practice it, fine, I pray you shut up because bitching about other people's kinks is stupid, dense, boring, obnoxious, worthless, fatuous, arrogant, pathetic and did I mention stupid and boring?

-Your bitching about how dangerous consensual non-consent is makes it abundantly clear that the words do mean something, you understand what the words mean, and just don't like what they express. If the words really confused you, how can you object so strongly and repeatedly to the concept?

-All I get out of your post is that other people's choices piss you off. Great - get used to being powerless over other people for, oh, ever.

Seriously, bitching and twisting your panties over other adult's choices is just asinine.

You missed my pont entirely. Next time actually read my posts.

Wolf

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 36

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 8:07:03 PM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

My point was, that when we (as a community) get comfortable with using oxymorons like "consentual non-consent" it confuses everyone and gets silly at some point.

While I understand what people are trying to say when using this expression "consentual non-consent" I would agree that there is a far better way of expressing oneself.

If one were to think about it they would figure out pretty quick that consent is consent. Using the "non-consent" is unnecessary, but refuses them the school girl tittering of 'oooh I'm really doing something bad now because I didn't really really consent'

Consentual non-consent of 'play rape' is exactly that 'play rape'. If you want to play hey no big deal, play.

D (Owner of j)

(in reply to wolfinside)

Post #: 37

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 4:04:09 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Then you didn't read what he said very carefully. There was no objection whatsoever to people's choices. The objection had to do with the phrase itself.

It should be clear from this very thread that the alleged meaning of phrases like "consensual non-consent" is vague and contested. Maybe in your private language (and we all have private languages) the phrase means something specific, but it's not going to mean the same thing to most people. Surely you recognize that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

-All I get out of your post is that other people's choices piss you off. Great - get used to being powerless over other people for, oh, ever.

Seriously, bitching and twisting your panties over other adult's choices is just asinine.

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 38

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 12:49:35 PM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

Seriously, bitching and twisting your panties over other adult's choices is just asinine.

Faramir

Just a suggestion...but can't You moderate Your language a bit so it's not quite so childish?

pinkpleasures

_____________________________

(in reply to Faramir)

Post #: 39

RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 1:36:10 PM

AAkasha

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

quote:

My point was, that when we (as a community) get comfortable with using oxymorons like "consentual non-consent" it confuses everyone and gets silly at some point.

While I understand what people are trying to say when using this expression "consentual non-consent" I would agree that there is a far better way of expressing oneself.

If one were to think about it they would figure out pretty quick that consent is consent. Using the "non-consent" is unnecessary, but refuses them the school girl tittering of 'oooh I'm really doing something bad now because I didn't really really consent'

Consentual non-consent of 'play rape' is exactly that 'play rape'. If you want to play hey no big deal, play.

D (Owner of j)

If you are talking about "consentual non-consent" acts like "play rape" why not call it "roleplaying." Seems like BDSMers these days don't like to say what they do is 'roleplaying' because it minimizes it or something.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 40

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