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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 1:44:21 PM

RavenofPK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: candigirlll

what i stated was not rude not misinformed... it is the truth... you need to get a grip this is a forum where many people have different opinions and i happen to think people who think they are Gorean are Nuts.. it is funny i have never went into a Busniess and heard someone speaking third person... like hi welcome to McDonalds may a girl take your order... and ALL Gor BS is roleplay...lol did you not read the books ... you have a right to your opinion and i respect the fact that you think i am rude.. as you must respect the fact that i think have read one too many Bad BDSM Books lol....

Oh...........I get it. You are bitter because you tried the Gorean way, couldn't hack it, and failed.

Gotcha. :)

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 2:04:51 PM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

If you are talking about "consentual non-consent" acts like "play rape" why not call it "roleplaying." Seems like BDSMers these days don't like to say what they do is 'roleplaying' because it minimizes it or something.

Akasha

Roleplaying a rape is a consensual act of roleplaying - acting out a rape scene would not be an example of consensual non-consent.

Knocking her down and raping her ass dry, and she really doesn't want it - she genuinely hates what's happening (maybe really is hurt and angry or scared afterwards) - and yet somehow, needs you to treat her this way as part of the whole - that's consensual non-consent.

RP is fabulous - it just isn't consensual non-consent. Wolfie648 was confusing RP with consensual non-consent. People who aren't into consensual non-consent have a hard time wrapping their heads around it, and I think link it with something they are familiar with: roleplay.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 2:20:21 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

If you are talking about "consentual non-consent" acts like "play rape" why not call it "roleplaying." Seems like BDSMers these days don't like to say what they do is 'roleplaying' because it minimizes it or something.

Akasha

Roleplaying a rape is a consensual act of roleplaying - acting out a rape scene would not be an example of consensual non-consent.

Knocking her down and raping her ass dry, and she really doesn't want it - she genuinely hates what's happening (maybe really is hurt and angry or scared afterwards) - and yet somehow, needs you to treat her this way as part of the whole - that's consensual non-consent.

RP is fabulous - it just isn't consensual non-consent. Wolfie648 was confusing RP with consensual non-consent. People who aren't into consensual non-consent have a hard time wrapping their heads around it, and I think link it with something they are familiar with: roleplay.

With that kind of definition of consensual non-consent, then the BDSM activities in my relationship almost all fall into that category, and I find that hard to believe. One of my core fetishes as a femdom is to have a man submit to me not because he likes what I am doing to him (he may HATE it), but because he likes what it does for me. He would never endure the things he does if he did not love me and knew it was important to me. I don't tell him "pretend to hate this," when I shove a huge gag into his mouth. He really does HATE it.

I still wouldn't call what we do consensual non consent.

Akasha

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 3:04:41 PM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

With that kind of definition of consensual non-consent, then the BDSM activities in my relationship almost all fall into that category, and I find that hard to believe. One of my core fetishes as a femdom is to have a man submit to me not because he likes what I am doing to him (he may HATE it), but because he likes what it does for me. He would never endure the things he does if he did not love me and knew it was important to me. I don't tell him "pretend to hate this," when I shove a huge gag into his mouth. He really does HATE it.

I still wouldn't call what we do consensual non consent.

Akasha

It's not an activitity or series of activities - it's a relationship framework. If you "make" him do something nasty, you've done some kind of D/s scene - if you physically force/overpower him, you've done some kind of force scene - if you do "X" to him you're doing some kind of "X" play.

If you two have a relationship where he has consented in comprehensive way for you to do things to him regardless of whether he consents at that time, to what you do, well, that's what "consensual non-consent" means. Maybe you do have that, and don't like that particular verbiage. Fine with me.

Did you notice several people quoted my articlation and said "That's what we do," or "Yea, that's what it means for me"? - that very clear, very concise, very specific articulation resonates as clarion communication to a decent chunk of people.

It's a very specific iteration of a BDSM relationship, and seems to really arouse strong, negative feelings in a lot of people who don't do it.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 3:57:54 PM

TexasMaam

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I dunno, wolfinside. Reading your posts, were I submissive, I'd give you wiiiide berth. John was only making an observation, not attacking you. Not that I expect you to be receptive.

<waits for the ranting to follow....goes to turn on Her music and get a glass of burgundy and logs out, knowing She won't bother to read the flames....

lololol g'day.

TexasMaam

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 4:39:12 PM

windchymes

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quote:

An example would be her getting mouthy with me and me backhanding her off her feet.

Faramir,

I hope she never gets truly pissed off at you, because what you described is a felony in most states. At the very least, it would land you a night in jail and charges of domestic violence. But battery could land you in prison.

Sorry to be a parade rainer.

windchymes

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 5:18:54 PM

Lordandmaster

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I haven't seen anyone expressing negative feelings about that kind of relationship (except for the comment above me). I've seen people expressing negative feelings about whether the phrase "consensual non-consent" meaningfully describes that kind of relationship. You seem to be taking all these comments as an attack on your chosen way of life, and they're not. In fact, I think it's clear that the comments are coming from people who identify strongly with the kind of relationship you're talking about. (My relationship with Lamspeach would be the same thing as what you call "consensual non-consent"--but I would never call it that.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

Did you notice several people quoted my articlation and said "That's what we do," or "Yea, that's what it means for me"? - that very clear, very concise, very specific articulation resonates as clarion communication to a decent chunk of people.

It's a very specific iteration of a BDSM relationship, and seems to really arouse strong, negative feelings in a lot of people who don't do it.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 5:48:51 PM

windchymes

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I'm not judging anyone's relationship negatively, in fact, I'm all for any kind of relationship where both parties are happy and content and not hurting anyone else.

What I meant by the statements I made are that, there are instances out there of people having a change of mood, or maybe a resentment builds, the right hormones are raging, or whatever.....if she suddenly decides to call the cops after you backhand her, you're at the mercy of the courts, because it IS illegal, and highly frowned upon in today's everyday society!

If you do exist in a relationship of "consensual" violence....there really is no guarantee that she might some day have a change of heart. Just something to think about, that's all. I'm not judging the relationship, just pointing out possible repercussions.

windchymes

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 6:24:07 PM

windchymes

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It is requested you do not feed.

< Message edited by ModeratorTen -- 10/17/2005 2:22:56 AM >

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 6:54:21 PM

candigirlll

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hey you are right about that.. i was just pointing out this VERY fact in another thread... this girl in anotehr lifestyle site i go to.. came in the rooms and talk to this oen Dom for months.. telling him what she wanted him to do to and with her when they met... she climed to be a heavy player.. and a edge play junkie... now keep in mind they had a safe word set in place... he gave her what she asked for.. i mean in this rape scene she was saying no... but lots of ogirls use no in a rape sence... she never safe worded out... she called the cops on him... she cam back in this site telling everyone how rough he was and how he abused her.. and everyone was like well you told him that is what you liked... he did not KNOW she was not digging the scene.. he got probation after a long drug out court thingy he was outed to his family who knew nothing of his lifestyle... it was am mess... now some people blame him...but i say... if you claim to be a heavy player you best be... i dont blame HIM i say it was a lesson learned for her...

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 6:59:11 PM

Soulhuntre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wolfinside
"consnsual non-consent"

God lord, it's no wonder outsiders think we (people in this lifestyle) are all f-ing nuts.

There is no such thing.

Actually, not only is there - it is extremely common in vanilla life. The easiest way to explain it? The military.

When you sign up for the militar you consent to give up your right to consent. From the point that you sign, your ability to withdraw your consent is no longer relevant. Now, clearly you may, at some later time, no longer consent to being int he military - in fact miliary prisons are full of people who did just that.

That is because "consent" is a word with multiple scales. However since the law has adopted a "no means no" policy, the legal reality is that consent is a moment to moment thing, sometimes not.. Even the law then understands that consent is a thing that only sometimes is important moment to moment int he face of prior consent.

According the to legal concept of consent that applies to rape for instance the military can indeed act against your consent (no does not mean no in the military). In those cases, they law accepts a standard of prior or meta consent.

Consensual non-consent then is easily understood like this... "consent as it applies to a military term, not as it applies to sex".

Try and tell a cop that she consented "prior" and that her current lack of consent isn't relevant - he will still consider you a rapist. So clearly it is possible to consider many con-noncon scenes to be what the law would consider non-consensual.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/16/2005 7:16:39 PM

windchymes

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THIS is what I was talking about, candigirlll and Soulhuntre. You need to be really certain of who you're playing with before you commit felonies with them.

windchymes

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 12:43:46 AM

Lordandmaster

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OK, then I misunderstood. I agree with what you're saying now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

If you do exist in a relationship of "consensual" violence....there really is no guarantee that she might some day have a change of heart. Just something to think about, that's all. I'm not judging the relationship, just pointing out possible repercussions.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 7:14:16 AM

BlueDevil

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I recently met a girl that seemed to want to be forced to submit. She signed a submissive contract, sent tons of emails with her name, all manner of personal information, and then began backpeddaling, talking about how she couldn't do this, couldn't do that, but needed to be forced to do things that she couldn't do because of a controlling mother, etc.

While I'm sure there are those that might have taken the next step, I couldn't. She never said 'blackmail me'. The game just got too weird for me. I destroyed all of her messages and emails, destroyed the agreement, and walked away.

To me, even in non-consensual consensual, they have to say the words.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 7:20:58 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueDevil

I recently met a girl that seemed to want to be forced to submit. She signed a submissive contract, sent tons of emails with her name, all manner of personal information, and then began backpeddaling, talking about how she couldn't do this, couldn't do that, but needed to be forced to do things that she couldn't do because of a controlling mother, etc.

While I'm sure there are those that might have taken the next step, I couldn't. She never said 'blackmail me'. The game just got too weird for me. I destroyed all of her messages and emails, destroyed the agreement, and walked away.

To me, even in non-consensual consensual, they have to say the words.

Wise move. Back in 1996, a doctoral candidate at Columbia named Oliver Jovanovich was approached by just such a woman.

They met; they played; she went home.

Then the police arrived. He was convicted of a long list of crimes based on her testimony. Several years later, he won release because the trial judge had refused to allow him to enter into evidence the emails the two had exchanged, but his academic life is over and I can imagine what life had been like behind bars for "a sadistic rapist."

People talk a lot about the degree of trust a submissive has to give, but it's also true for a dominant. To do this kind of play, you should know your partner really really well.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 10/17/2005 7:22:28 AM >

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 9:10:10 AM

plantlady64

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HelloThere,
I am my Masters no limit slave. This does not mean I would screw animals, hurt kids, or be willing to die on purpose. It means to me that I fully trust my Master loves me and cares about me enough to not ask anything of me I can't handle. As we are both offended by the cut your arm off or rape kids etc. types of play I'm safe to have no limits with him.

One of the most non-consensual things he's ever ask me do was needle play in my pussy. I've been curious about needles, as I'd heard the endorphin rush is incredible. I'd done two tiny thin needles in my breast at an extreme-atorium event in my dungeon. It's an event where you could try things under the hand of a skilled Master in a safe/sane environment. As this lady was very gentle I though it was cool. I'd told my Master I wanted to experiment more with this. We had one of my very edge oriented experienced Dom friends offer to not only put needles through my labia, but to also introduce me to medical staples.
Well let me tell you I was terrified & if it was up to me the answer would have been a big no right off the bat as this was not the needle play I'd had in mind at all. My Master said since I was curious about needles he wanted me to do it. Of course I instantly got up on the table and spread my legs against my will to please my Master. I was so sacred I was shaking like I was freezing. The first one hurt like hell. My Master asks if I wanted another one. I said no, he said I want you to take another one for me, so I did. All in all I ended up with 9 needles three in each breast, three in my crotch, and two staples in my belly button and I honestly wanted none in my crotch ever and never wanted to be awake and stapled.
So in my opinion this is the best example of consensual/non-consensual play I've done to date for my Master.

I also hate anal sex and before 2/05 was so adamant about it I was an exit only no one was permitted to stimulate my anus let alone penetrate it. Unfortunately for me my Master loves poking & playing with my butt. I really don't like it and think it's very dirty to me. I allow him full access to my rear anytime he wants even though I don't enjoy it & can't wait for it to be over. Again because being pleasing to my Master overrules my own desires. To please him is my first focus and what honestly frees me to be the person I need to be to have contentment in my life.
I hate some things and would have never consented to them on my own. Above are my two strongest self-limits I consented to, as it would make my Master happy.
All in all it's still non-consensual/consensual to me. Due to my mindset as his salve, even though my personal consent if I was not his slave would not be obtained, I'm still willing to sacrifice my comfort and trust my Master.
For absolute non-consensual forcing things, I thank God no one has pushed me into anything I can't or won't accept to do on any level for any reason in the BDSM world. To me the things like hurting kids or screwing animals would be the types of things I would rather die or be released than do, but I trust my Master will never ask me to go there as he thinks they are sick and wrong for him also.

Sincerely,
sub suzanne

< Message edited by plantlady64 -- 10/17/2005 9:12:00 AM >

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 10:33:36 AM

MasterHyde

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quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl

Any play that involves the provision of a safeword is consensual nonconsent, because it allows the bottom to say "no" without ending the scene. I'd say that just about any kind of BDSM play can therefore be a consensual nonconsent scene.

I just wanted to add my own two cents on this. I don't think what's described above is consensual nonconsent. The idea of a safewords is that someone can stop a scene immediately, using a safeword to inform their partner they are withdrawing consent. The safeword, when used this way, has exactly the same meaning as "stop" or "no." One word has simply been replaced by another. This substitution does not affect the person's ability to withdraw consent at all, because if someone wants the scene to stop, she can still stop it by using the safeword.

Consensual nonconsent, as I understand it, and as it used by most people I know, is different. It is an understanding that once consent has been given, it cannot be withdrawn. Or, at least, it won't matter. When I scenes of this type, there are NO safewords that will stop the activity. No signal, no withdrawl of consent that will prevent me from finishing what I started. When someone plays with me in this manner, she understands that one the scene begins she will have no choice but to see it through to the end.

The best example I have for this is skydiving. Once you leave the plane, there's no turning back. Ten seconds in, you might regret your decision, and you might want to get back in the plance... but you can't. All you can do at that point is follow your training. Pull the ripcord, and do whatever it is thet skydivers do to enjoy the experience and land safely at the end. Yes, there is risk involved. No, it wouldn't be nearly as exciting if that risk were removed.

This isn't for everyone, obviously. But for most people who appreciate this sort of thing, this the "only way" to do it.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 11:17:12 AM

Soulhuntre

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I strung together replies to several peole here for efficiency :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Roleplaying a rape is a consensual act of roleplaying - acting out a rape scene would not be an example of consensual non-consent.

Knocking her down and raping her ass dry, and she really doesn't want it - she genuinely hates what's happening (maybe really is hurt and angry or scared afterwards) - and yet somehow, needs you to treat her this way as part of the whole - that's consensual non-consent.

In the end consensual non-consent is sometimes more clearly understood by the term "retro-active consent". When this hpallens in my world, to my girls, we are talking about somethign that they literally do not want, literally do not consent to, literally would (if they could) terminate the relationship to stop or prevent at the time. In legal terms and by the ethics the law applies to rape they have "said no".

Yet the situation continues. It continues not because they decided to endure it - but because they have no choice. By the time they do have a choice they have looking back on it extended their consent. One vanilla I know who discussed it with me finally understood it in her own head by saying "so basically she is someone you know will forgive you for raping her".

quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl
Any play that involves the provision of a safeword is consensual nonconsent, because it allows the bottom to say "no" without ending the scene. I'd say that just about any kind of BDSM play can therefore be a consensual nonconsent scene.

That is not, to me or those I know who deal in this type of dynamic, consensual non-consent. That is consent. It is ongoing, and it is clear. The fact that the use of a safeword (the indication of non-consent) woudl terminate or alter the scene means it is consensual all the way through.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
With that kind of definition of consensual non-consent, then the BDSM activities in my relationship almost all fall into that category, and I find that hard to believe. One of my core fetishes as a femdom is to have a man submit to me not because he likes what I am doing to him (he may HATE it), but because he likes what it does for me. He would never endure the things he does if he did not love me and knew it was important to me. I don't tell him "pretend to hate this," when I shove a huge gag into his mouth. He really does HATE it.

I still wouldn't call what we do consensual non consent.

Neither would I because he is continually consenting. He hates the act, but he is consenting to it in order to serve a larger purpose and a higher reward (your pleasure).

Consensual non-consent is when you can look someone in the eyes and they would tell you to stop what is happening even if it meant the termination of the relationship and you continue because you know that later in retrospect they will look back and consent to it having happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes
I hope she never gets truly pissed off at you, because what you described is a felony in most states. At the very least, it would land you a night in jail and charges of domestic violence. But battery could land you in prison.

Sorry to be a parade rainer.

I can't speak for Faramir but it certainly isn't a surprise to me or those I spend time with. One woulf have to be particularly disconnected from reality not to realize the potential legal problems :)

Then again, we live in a time where most of what we do for fun (or at least what I do for fun) probably would count as assault in the eyes of someone narrow minded. As for morning after regrets, we also live in a time when such things happen fairly regularly even in the vanilla world after nights that weren't in the slightest bit non-consensual. That a false "morning after" revenge driven accusation of rape or kidnapping is a common enough tactic to be an understood danger says a lot about the state of our legal system and it's rather sad understanding of the nuances of consent.

All that being said yes, we need to be careful who we play with :)

For amusement I once wound up trying to explain this stuff in another way... The Consent Equation

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/17/2005 12:53:44 PM

Fawne

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Two comments please.

1. OK. So, you mean I have been doing it wrong? When I was a slave, I was supposed to actually like everything? Wait.......

2. Ya'll actually agree. Somewhere between "Topping from the bottom" to "consentual non-consent" .... OK? Right there.

SOOO everyone agrees. All win. Where's the door prize?

Thank you everybody.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/18/2005 12:02:25 AM

wolfinside

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Then you didn't read what he said very carefully. There was no objection whatsoever to people's choices. The objection had to do with the phrase itself.

It should be clear from this very thread that the alleged meaning of phrases like "consensual non-consent" is vague and contested. Maybe in your private language (and we all have private languages) the phrase means something specific, but it's not going to mean the same thing to most people. Surely you recognize that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

-All I get out of your post is that other people's choices piss you off. Great - get used to being powerless over other people for, oh, ever.

Seriously, bitching and twisting your panties over other adult's choices is just asinine.

Thank you Lordandmaster,

Thank you for actually reading my posts. And understanding them. (and thanks to a few others as well)

A few points of carification for those who did not.

1. I was not knocking anyones lifestyle choice, I was talking about using the language in this confusing way.

2. I think it would make a lot more sense to call what we are talking about "pre-consent". It would make it safer for doms in a legal situation.

3. "pre-consent" is all I do. (that's why this silly "consensual non-consent" term irritates me so)

Wolf

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