RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear

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Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 9:18:17 PM)
"The only thing I am worried about is nuclear capability in the hands of extremist. I do not care which side it is on, but the fanaticism is the scary part". I think mutually assured destruction,will prevent Iran from using nuclear weapons. From what a few have said,mutual distruction is preferable.The "kill them all let god sort them out" POV is not helpful or even cute. I understand the frustration of some people(god knows people are beyond sick and tired).But simple answers from simple minds, have had two terms to ply their simple logic in the middle east. It`s time for a committed,fair and pro-active approach to mid-east peace.

Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 9:29:36 PM)
Just noticed lucky on moderation. Fwiw, I did not,nor have I ever complained to the Mods,on any matter. The Mod-mails are pretty much oneway conversations scolding me.

luckydog1 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 9:42:39 PM)
I hope no one is slow enough to fall for the switch owner59 tried to pull. I talk about a specific leader, having direct ties to Nazis, being a recruiter for the SS, and interveneing to have children sent to death camps (and those are just some shocking high points, this guy was a certified monster). First he tries to compare the guy to Prescott Bush with an article that says there is not a hint of evidence that Prescott supported the Nazi goals. Al Husyani sent a letter to Hitler directly praising the "scientific Solution" which were death camps. Why does owner have such a deep need to deny this, only he knows. Next he LIES and pretends I implied all arabs were Nazis, Then goes on a rant about how just because Some french and Poles joined the Nazis all were not Nazis. Which is of course true. But not at all what I said. If owner is implying that the French and Poles who willingly helped Hitler with the jew Problem were not Anti Semites, that is dumb beyond belief. OF course the People who joined and assisted Hitler were Nazi Sympathisers...People like Al Huysani. Who was not just some dude from Palestine. He was the scion of the most important Familly in the region, and something like the 14th heriditary Mufti (sort of analogous to a Mayor, but with religious functions as well as civil) of Jerusalem. He started the grand tradition (going on right now as we speak) of stealing money given to help needy Palestinain people (the British gave him funds to distribute to widows and Orphans) and using it to pay mobs to kill Jews. Just read about this guy, if you never have. He was very influential. And a Nazi scumbag. And is responsible for the situation that exists today. The other great thing about him was that he opposed the idea of a Nation of Palestine and was planning to become the Head guy in the Palestinain provence of Greater Syria.

Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:23:41 PM)
Prescott Bush, had 3 companies siezed and was the managing director of the Nazi plan and he even managed part of the slave labor in poland! I think that more than suggests he was a nazi sympathizer/supporter!!! The nazis tried to get the jews to move out by modelling government discrimination using the way we treated our american blacks as a construct. Well guess what....other countries wouldnt have them either. It seems the jews werent to popular in that whole hemispere. Fritz disagreed with hitler with the way he treated jews, gypsies, commies, etc and resigned from the council and left only to be caught in france taken to aushwitz where he had to stay out of the way. He was a political prisoner hitler only wanted to silence and keep under wraps. He wasnt thrown in with the general population. After all he did donate more than a million bucks to hitlers champaign. That and while you want to down play bushcos 1 share it was 1.5 million bucks in gold.

Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:47:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado It is well documented history. And everyone in this thread who has claimed that the Holocaust and the centuries of attempts to kill Jews by Arabs, Muslims, and Europeans did not occur as recorded, is embracing the anti-semitic, Holocaust denier position. For them to then go running to the Mods when correctly labelled as anti-semites, and Holocaust deniers, still isn't going to change the facts. They have declared their position and should wear the label. The OP threat from Iran to eradicate Israel was not 'caused' by the Zionists any more than the loss of a Chess game was caused by the 100th move. It has always been about killing Jews. Well until 2001. Now its all about killing evil muslims. There are lots of modern day holocaust deniers who justify the killing of over 1 million muslims and counting. So its not ALL about killing jews. First off most people that disagree with the holocaust that I have discussed this with disagree with the "numbers" of jews killed not that there was no holocaust. Secondly many many people do not consider it a holocaust when compared to stalin who killed how many 43million+? Doesnt make hitler sound so bad any more does it? So if hitler was the "holocaust" What will we label Stalin's? Finally just how do you "know" the zionists had "nothing" to do with it? I dont think you can make that claim with any credibility. So how about our modern day holocaust? Its all about killing muslims and pilaging their sovereign countries of their natural resources. Whats a million dead muslims one way or the other. Done anything to stop it yet? Lots of "holocaust deniers/supporters/dontgiveashitters" running around these days. Its all about killing Muslims.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 2:21:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf If so, have that not already said they would like to see Israel destroyed, and are committed to just that? It's unclear, Orion. The problem is that the West, particularly the United States, keeps sticking its beak in and interpreting the situation to further its political goals. There are grounds to suggest Western sources, and more fundamentalist Arab sources, are deliberately misinterpreting the words of Iranian statesmen (for obvious reasons). For example, the phrase "Wipe off the Map" does not exist in any other language but English - it is an English idiom; furthermore; in that speech he compared the fall of the Israeli regime with the fall of the Shah in his own country, i.e. a change of leadership rather than an annihilation of a people. No one on this board speaks Farsi, it's unclear exactly what Iranian statesmen are saying, yet people rush to believe Western media sources and Western governments (who we all know have form for lying) - why? I'd guess because people have been duped by the constant spin and propaganda suggesting Muslims are all fanatics, which is a real worry because once the foundations have been laid where a whole people have been demonised, your citizens are open to anything. I was in a museum in Berlin charting the history of Russian-German relations a few months back, you wouldn't believe some of the outlandish propaganda from both sides - in the pre Nazi era, too - I'd be wary of believing what your told with regard to cultures and people you know very little of as you don't know where it might end. On a related note, demonising a whole people is counter-productive because it only serves to split left and right into the "they're all great", "they're all lunatics" camps - and the small minority of extremists who really are a danger are forgotten in these ill-informed discussions.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 3:09:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: (LD)So lets recap. ****** says that there were no ties between the Arabs and the Nazis, specifically the Mufti of Jerusalem, that is bullshit and vile propaganda to discuss the actuall, documented, never secret, proudly publically declared facts... ... And he wants to compare owning one share in a german company, run by a man who was put into Auswich to being an active SS recruiter, who publically admired the "Scientific Solution to the Jew Problem". What can you be called except an Anti Semite and Defender of Nazis, owner....I don't care if I get moderated over this. I have to speak. It is well documented history. And everyone in this thread who has claimed that the Holocaust and the centuries of attempts to kill Jews by Arabs, Muslims, and Europeans did not occur as recorded, is embracing the anti-semitic, Holocaust denier position. For them to then go running to the Mods when correctly labelled as anti-semites, and Holocaust deniers, still isn't going to change the facts. They have declared their position and should wear the label. The OP threat from Iran to eradicate Israel was not 'caused' by the Zionists any more than the loss of a Chess game was caused by the 100th move. It has always been about killing Jews. You never answer pertinent points but always imply that anyone who disagrees with you is a an anti-semite and a holocaust denier. Name names. Say specifically why you think someone is an anti-semite and a holocaust denier. You have never answered one single pertinent point in any of my posts or claimed them to be wrong but you go on insinuating that anyone with a different view to you wants Jews killed. I have said many times before that Israel is a fact and should have thye right to exist because it is impossible to go back to before Balfour and start again but only a sense that justice reigns, will solve this conflict. I'm afraid the time has gone when people who defend the fascist nature of the Israeli government can simple shout and point anti-semite and shut people up, it is now time for the defenders of Israel to argue why it is all right for Israel to steal people's land, torture people, incarcerate people without trial, destroy peoples homes and ethnically cleanse people, and effectively create a huge concentration camp (Gaza), all of which are well documented facts and all of which, may I remind you, break international law and about every international treaty on human rights. May I also remind you that such laws and treaties were set up after WWII to make sure a holocaust can't happen again!!! As occupiers of Arab lands Israel has a duty of care to the occupied people, not a right to dehumanize. Israel seized the land they now occupy by starting a war, they decided to ethnically cleanse, they decide to build settlements on occupied land which is against international law. No one forced these choices on Israel! Now pray tell me, if the USA and its western allies are fighting for the rule of law and civilized values, how do they reconcile supporting and bankrolling a state whose values are the antithesis of what the west claims to stand for? How can one win the law of terror against muslims when they see western hypocrisy and its moral and material support of what the west normally calls, a pariah state. I doubt I will get an answer from you, you have shown you are incapable of anything but mud slinging when you are called to account. You must keep averting your eyes when I quote Ben Gurion but here he is again and I don't care if you are squeamish. “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” *“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”* “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” Who hates who and who wants who dead?

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 3:34:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Is of a completely different Caliber. For you to defend Nazis and Hitlers allies is beyond reprehension. And its hard to think it is is ignorance on your part. As every link I cited was absolutly true. Even Meat and Reality try to explain it away as not a big deal. You deny the reailty. What except anti Semitism, would promt you to defend Nazis, and people who admired his Scientific Solution to the "Jew problem". Seriously, what except for Anti Semitism would have you defending actuall Nazi ties and support. What do I try to explain away? You are putting words in my mouth. Do I explain away the holocaust? You have never heard me say anything of the sort, nor have you heard me say anything in the support of the Nazis. I have said that the Arab (or even muslim) conflict with the Jews is not the same as European anti-semiticism. Arab animosity to the Jewish state has a cause and a reason, even if you don't agree with it. European anti-semiticism is pure prejudice created through religious politics and dogma. Just because I am angry with Israel doesn't make me anti-semitic. My anger with Israel is because Israel and most western states see Israel as a member of the west and support it without criticism, while supposedly fighting in my name for the rule of law and civilised values. Values I admit, the west is totally and utterly hypocritical about which is why I get angry about other western policies than support for Israel, values the Israeli government claims to have while totally flaunting its disdain for such values. No doubt from reading your posts, you are for the fight on terror and support Bush's campaign for the rule of law and civilized values. You often condemn the uncivilised, irrational and violent Arabs but claim the same uncivilised, irrational and violent behaviour of Israel and the west is necessary, in order to impose the very values they ignore! I get frustrated by the self imposed myopia of people who support such nonsense and then condemn people who flag it up, as anti-semitic. It won't wash lucky, people who believe in justice now don't care about the reflex attack on them being anti-semetic. That worked twenty years ago, not now, Israel has wilfully commited too many crimes since to be given the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Politesub53 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 4:03:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent There are grounds to suggest Western sources, and more fundamentalist Arab sources, are deliberately misinterpreting the words of Iranian statesmen (for obvious reasons). A web search shows that the initial use of "Wipe of the map" was in the IRNA press release. As IRNA is the Iranian propoganda machine, i would suggest the misquote on their part was deliberate. The translation, according to several web sites, equates to "Wipe from the page of history the regime in Jerusalem." The Iranians have now said that this means simply regime change. This new quote, as mentioned in the OP is a threat though, and shows the thinking of some inside the Iranian military. Muhammad Ali Jafari is the commander of the revoloutionary guard.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 4:53:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent There are grounds to suggest Western sources, and more fundamentalist Arab sources, are deliberately misinterpreting the words of Iranian statesmen (for obvious reasons). A web search shows that the initial use of "Wipe of the map" was in the IRNA press release. As IRNA is the Iranian propoganda machine, i would suggest the misquote on their part was deliberate. The translation, according to several web sites, equates to "Wipe from the page of history the regime in Jerusalem." The Iranians have now said that this means simply regime change. Regardless, Western sources (The Guardian, New York Times included) lifted the phrase "wiped off the face of the map" without stopping to consider what was actually said and in what context. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 This new quote, as mentioned in the OP is a threat though, and shows the thinking of some inside the Iranian military. Muhammad Ali Jafari is the commander of the revoloutionary guard. Yeah, we could focus on that, or we could focus on the fact that the Iranians are pursuing diplomacy with the EU, while the Israeli Prime Minister discusses damaging Iran's nuclear capacity, i.e. an attack on Iran. You, we, I could pick at the bones of what is being said all day long, but it is testament to anti-Muslim sentiment that many choose to see Iranian aggression and ignore Israeli aggression. Ironically, the same path that led to the Holocaust is being trodden, only this time the Muslims are public enemy number one rather than the Jews. I think it was Batshalom who suggested people aren't learning the lessons from history - never a truer word spoken with regard to the Jews of past centuries and the Muslims of today.

xBullx -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 5:41:12 AM)
Howdy Gent, I'm aware of the fact that you might get out and about of on your half of the world a tad bit more than I. The comment you made that I have highlighted disturbed me. Is it truly someones intention to do to the Muslims what was done to the Jewish population during WWII? I've not witnessed that sentiment with people I know and talk to. I believe that Shiri Law and the restrictive nature some Arab cultures have scares the shit out of the bleeding heart types of the west and these bleeding heart folks have a gift for sticking their noses into everyones affairs. Aside from directing frustration and contempt at the extremists that state they want this holy war and will stop at nothing short of all men submitting to the Muslim faith I don't believe this contempt is for all Muslims; at least that seems to be the case here in middle America. Sure we have our extremists that shout ridiculous notions as well, but I hope that we aren't all viewed in that light much the same as I don't see the entire Muslim population in any singular perspective. In the end I do try to respect the cultural differences everyone has, hell I'm a Gorean and we sure as hell understand contempt do to ignorance. Live well good neighbor, Bull quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Ironically, the same path that led to the Holocaust is being trodden, only this time the Muslims are public enemy number one rather than the Jews. I think it was Batshalom who suggested people aren't learning the lessons from history - never a truer word spoken with regard to the Jews of past centuries and the Muslims of today.

kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 5:59:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Is it truly someones intention to do to the Muslims what was done to the Jewish population during WWII? I've not witnessed that sentiment with people I know and talk to. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Ironically, the same path that led to the Holocaust is being trodden, only this time the Muslims are public enemy number one rather than the Jews. I think it was Batshalom who suggested people aren't learning the lessons from history - never a truer word spoken with regard to the Jews of past centuries and the Muslims of today. A long history of pogroms culminated with the ultimate pogrom of all pogroms: the destruction of the European Jews during the Holocaust - see Raul Hilberg, who wrote a seminal work on the subject. After numerous reminders, the posters who argue against Israel's politics still ignore this historical fact. Israel doesn't have a policy of genocide towards the Palestinians. It really does everybody a disservice to argue this point: Israel has no intention of exterminating the Palestinians. To argue that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany is fucking perverse.

Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:30:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Is it truly someones intention to do to the Muslims what was done to the Jewish population during WWII? That is my analysis as well. There has been a world wide war going on against religions for several centuries now. Secret agencies of western nations have been fabricating crimes and manipulated evidence to blame muslim groups for those crimes; groups they often hand-reared as scapegoats themselves. 911 comes to mind - there were not even any highjackers on the two planes used, nor on the other two planes that never existed. Also various notorious bombings. It is easy to drive some muslims - say from north Africa - nuts, make sure that there is a trail from say Iranian uranium or Indonesian poison gas to these nutty muslims, then have some secret agents perpetrate an attack using such a means on a European or American city and next have investigation by police and other secret services turn up the planted false evidence, blame the scapegoat muslims for this attack and start a war of retaliation against Iran, Indonesia or North Africa as well as a civil war in Europe between muslims and non-muslims, including concentration camps and whatever. Easy. It is done all the time. If a minor incident such as 911 evokes such an over the top response, just imagine the scale of the response after a dirty atomic bomb or poison gas attack.

Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:31:07 AM)
Oops, an edit gone quote.

kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:36:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule If a minor incident such as 911 evokes such an over the top response, just imagine the scale of the response after a dirty atomic bomb or poison gas attack. If the above is a deliberate provocation, I hope you're fully equipped to deal with its consequences [8\|]

Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:41:12 AM)
I have no idea what you are talking about. Provocation in what way? Of whom? Of muslims, of Bull, of you? No provocation was intended.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:43:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Howdy Gent, I'm aware of the fact that you might get out and about of on your half of the world a tad bit more than I. The comment you made that I have highlighted disturbed me. Is it truly someones intention to do to the Muslims what was done to the Jewish population during WWII? I've not witnessed that sentiment with people I know and talk to. Hi Bull, No, I doubt very much that anyone intends to undertake a policy of genocide. Neither, however, did the German people prior to the deluge of propaganda that tacitly and explicitly stated the Jews are sub-human; without this propaganda, the denigration of Jews in 1930s Germany that paved the way for the holocaust, wouldn't have been possible. You have to strip people of their status and rights as human beings to get people on board. It doesn't take a genius to see the same pattern developing. We're being led to believe (well, some of us) that they're all fanatics from a dark religion, hell bent on spreading Islam around the world: it's depressingly familiar. The Jews were going to take over the world financially, the Muslims are going to take over the world through force: both are/were presented as a serious threat to the Western way of life. There are Muslims who are extremists, of course, who do want to spread Islam around the world, but then again there were Jews who were very prominent in German and Western European financial circles; committed capitalists if you will. Both insignificant minorities are/were being presented as the majority in order to satisfy certain political goals. Germany and the Holocaust makes for interesting reading - how could this happen in such a highly civilised society as Germany: a country where the Jews were far more assimilated than anywhere else in Europe apart from England, a country that excelled in medicine, philosophy, technology, innovation, music etc, a country where 34% of the people voted for a socialist party in 1913 on the platform of solidarity, brotherhood and international peace. History suggests these things snowball and get out of hand, and before you know it people are turning a blind eye to the misery of others. One thing is for certain, these things start with the deliberate denigration of a culture in order to satisfy political goals and the ill informed take this view as gospel. I've no idea where this is going to lead, of course, but I sense that too many people believe everything they're told by those with a vested interest in painting Muslims as backward and fanatical. quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Aside from directing frustration and contempt at the extremists that state they want this holy war and will stop at nothing short of all men submitting to the Muslim faith I don't believe this contempt is for all Muslims; at least that seems to be the case here in middle America. Sure we have our extremists that shout ridiculous notions as well, but I hope that we aren't all viewed in that light much the same as I don't see the entire Muslim population in any singular perspective. 'Certainly not by me, Bull. Your authorities are a worry, though - and so are ours if the truth be told.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:44:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Is it truly someones intention to do to the Muslims what was done to the Jewish population during WWII? I've not witnessed that sentiment with people I know and talk to. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Ironically, the same path that led to the Holocaust is being trodden, only this time the Muslims are public enemy number one rather than the Jews. I think it was Batshalom who suggested people aren't learning the lessons from history - never a truer word spoken with regard to the Jews of past centuries and the Muslims of today. A long history of pogroms culminated with the ultimate pogrom of all pogroms: the destruction of the European Jews during the Holocaust - see Raul Hilberg, who wrote a seminal work on the subject. After numerous reminders, the posters who argue against Israel's politics still ignore this historical fact. Israel doesn't have a policy of genocide towards the Palestinians. It really does everybody a disservice to argue this point: Israel has no intention of exterminating the Palestinians. To argue that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany is fucking perverse. Israel doesn't have a policy of genocide towards the Palestinians, basically because it wouldn't get away with it but it dos have a policy of ethnic cleansing. I don't know how anyone could argue with that fact. It was the stated aim of the zionists since the beginning of the 20th century and it has been an ongoing policy for all to bear witness to on the West Bank (new settlements being built as we write) and also Gaza before Sharon accepted the price to pay for that policy was too high.

xBullx -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:55:32 AM)
Thanks Gent...........

xBullx -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/24/2008 6:59:55 AM)
Thanks Rule, I'll do that head scratch thing and open my eyes to perhaps a bit more than I would like to face. I have my suspicions that "evil" is not all that far from any man's threshhold.

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