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RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 12:44:10 PM

RealityLicks

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I have seen that article and the original statement by Amnesty and while I've never said that there are no political prisoners, I'm still reluctant to accept that we are talking about the level of gov't repression seen in say East Germany, before unification. If counter-revolutionaries are able to mount an attack with the CIA and then numerous assassination attempts, you would expect high levels of security-motivated police action.

Is it the human rights issues that matter or the lack of democracy? After all, in human rights terms, Castro did nothing any number of Presidents didn't do.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 101

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 12:49:15 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I'm not completely convinced he has killed dissidents - he's always been so keen to export them to the US. As for "lining people up against the wall", which I believe you referred to earlier, that's the means by which all executions are carried out there, not necessarily just those of political prisoners.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_v87/ai_4754854/pg_8

If you are as readily willing to accept that torture, government executions, the gastapo-ist police taserings (et al), reduction of american freedoms, and unlawful invasions of other countries are 'Bush', I suppose I can accept your characterizations of these things as 'Castro'.

Ron

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RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 1:22:07 PM

Marc2b

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RealityLicks said:

quote:

Castro did nothing any number of Presidents didn't do.

mnottertail said:

quote:

If you are as readily willing to accept that torture, government executions, the gastapo-ist police taserings (et al), reduction of american freedoms, and unlawful invasions of other countries are 'Bush', I suppose I can accept your characterizations of these things as 'Castro'.

For the last fucking time (yeah, right), people! Pointing out the bad behavior of others is irrelevant! You don’t excuse a convicted rapist because other men have committed rape, do you? When it comes to the crimes that Castro has committed the crimes of Bush or the House of Saud or who the fuck ever, are not relevant! Do you seriously expect me to believe that the political dissident who is being dragged to his death has to be dragged to his death because Cuban national security depends on it? It’s all just a bunch of hypocritical excuse making bullshit! Castro is a murderer and a torturer and therefore is not worthy of your respect but is worthy only of your contempt.

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Post #: 103

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 1:23:52 PM

mnottertail

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I don't respect him or bush or anyone else.

I just want real fuckin' Cohibas, end of joke.

Ron

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Post #: 104

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 1:41:42 PM

Marc2b

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Then do what I do, drive to Canada and buy some!

Granted, I'm only twenty minutes from the border but you don't look like you're too far from Canada either.

Just don't get caught!

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Post #: 105

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 1:47:36 PM

Zensee

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And similarly repeating myself, Marc. Do you believe that there is no hypocrisy when one rapist condemns another for the same crimes he is guilty of?

Pick idealism or pragmatism. You can't argue both in the same sentence.

Z.

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Post #: 106

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 1:55:08 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

And similarly repeating myself, Marc. Do you believe that there is no hypocrisy when one rapist condemns another for the same crimes he is guilty of?

Of course not. But that’s not the point, is it? The point is that Castro is what he is on his own merits (or would that be demerits?).

quote:

Pick idealism or pragmatism. You can't argue both in the same sentence.

Why not? Paradox and duality are inherent in the very fabric of reality.

Okay, now I’m starting to slip into my mystical/spiritual mode. Time for me to take a nap before Lost comes on.

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Post #: 107

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 1:58:21 PM

mnottertail

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lazy post.

Truthfully, you can couch the arguments anyway you want to, but I don't see alotta people 'respecting' Mr. Castro.............although alot of us are saying that he seems to be a run of the mill sort of chap when held up against most leaders in the 'free' world. Neither worse nor better. Just another jackass leader of a country. Horse apiece.

Ron

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Post #: 108

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 2:09:40 PM

Zensee

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Well I'd say that is the point when successive regimes (I mean Administrations) in the USA not only accuse foreign leaders of crimes they are clearly and repeatedly guilty of, they also act to punish others for those crimes.

And yes, pragmatism and idealism are intertwined, as in the previous sentence, but arguing apples to make a case for one side and oranges for the flip side of the same moral coin, is an unfair tactic in my books.

I am no lover of tyrants, Marc. In an ideal world Castro should behave a lot better (as should the majority of world leaders). In pragmatic terms, his country has been continuously at war for over half a century. That's bound to twist the psyche of a nation and it's leaders. Paranoid? Seeing conspiracies everywhere? Can't trust anyone? No kidding, when the CIA has a hard-on for you.

Understandable is not the same as excusable.

Yeah, a nap sounds about right. Enjoy Lost.

Z.

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Post #: 109

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 2:12:57 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

For the last fucking time (yeah, right), people! Pointing out the bad behavior of others is irrelevant!

...only if we're going to apply the same principle to all, with no fear or favour....as in the rapist example you gave. All are equal under law. Problem is, when you have a country that has the ironically named Patriot Act, then it is too easy to say pot, kettle, black. Also, when that same country has propped up vicious regimes that oppressed their own people purely because they served US economic interests then clearly the same principle is not applied to all. i'm absolutely not saying that you supported this hypocrisy, but you can't ignore it......

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Post #: 110

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 3:43:33 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Wake up! Pay attention! Class has been in session since post 46:

I thought I was agreeing with you. My bad.

Condescension noted.

Peace out.

Sinergy

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Post #: 111

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 8:27:55 PM

Marc2b

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Okay, not only am I getting a headache from banging my head against the wall but I’m starting to feel dizzy from running around in circles.

As I said before If people want to discuss the causes and effects if history, that’s one thing. I’m all for dispassionate analysis. In fact, I think there is way to little in society. And if you want to hate or cheer on one "side" or the other the other for whatever reasons, that’s your prerogative. But! Whatever conclusions one draws from such analysis, whatever one’s feeling regarding it, these remain the simple facts: Fidel Castro ruled as a dictator. He used torture and murder to achieve his ends. Screw him. That’s my position and I’m sticking with it.

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Post #: 112

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 8:31:29 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I'm not completely convinced he has killed dissidents - he's always been so keen to export them to the US. As for "lining people up against the wall", which I believe you referred to earlier, that's the means by which all executions are carried out there, not necessarily just those of political prisoners.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_v87/ai_4754854/pg_8

Marc2b:
Your cite is over 20 years old and it lists only a few dozen shootings...far fewer than the number of Americans who are executed by the police for what ever crime against the state.

I see that you like to link right wing dictators with left wing dictators as being equal in their "dictatorial" behavior.
If Castro were to walk away and tell the Cuban people to invite the Cuban-American contingent back from Miami and reinstall the U.S. form of dictatorship that was in place for some fifty years before Castro came to power. You can't really expect it to be different than what it was can you? Do you really think the lot of the common people would be better than it is now?
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/21/2008 8:33:31 PM >

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Post #: 113

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 8:56:45 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I thought I was agreeing with you. My bad.

It didn’t come across that way. It came across as the same "Castro’s not so bad and it’s all Bush’s fault anyway... blah... blah... blah..." that I’ve been hearing from so many others. If I misinterpreted that, my apologies.

quote:

Condescension noted.

But on the other hand... you’re being a little thinned skinned. That was not condescension, that was good natured rib poking born of exasperation (oh God, I thought, here we go again).

Whatever. I think it’s about time I walked away from this thread (but I’ll wait to see what Thompson has to say).

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Post #: 114

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/21/2008 9:26:23 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Your cite is over 20 years old and it lists only a few dozen shootings...far fewer than the number of Americans who are executed by the police for what ever crime against the state.

I see that you like to link right wing dictators with left wing dictators as being equal in their "dictatorial" behavior.
If Castro were to walk away and tell the Cuban people to invite the Cuban-American contingent back from Miami and reinstall the U.S. form of dictatorship that was in place for some fifty years before Castro came to power. You can't really expect it to be different than what it was can you? Do you really think the lot of the common people would be better than it is now?

Sigh. This is why it’s time for me to call it quits on this thread. We’re still going around in circles. I say Castro is a dictator, so screw him, other’s come in with "but... but... but... this," and "but... but... but... that..."

I’ve said my piece on this. I stand by it.

Peace.

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Post #: 115

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/22/2008 6:20:20 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Your cite is over 20 years old and it lists only a few dozen shootings...far fewer than the number of Americans who are executed by the police for what ever crime against the state.

I see that you like to link right wing dictators with left wing dictators as being equal in their "dictatorial" behavior.
If Castro were to walk away and tell the Cuban people to invite the Cuban-American contingent back from Miami and reinstall the U.S. form of dictatorship that was in place for some fifty years before Castro came to power. You can't really expect it to be different than what it was can you? Do you really think the lot of the common people would be better than it is now?

Sigh. This is why it’s time for me to call it quits on this thread. We’re still going around in circles. I say Castro is a dictator, so screw him, other’s come in with "but... but... but... this," and "but... but... but... that..."

I’ve said my piece on this. I stand by it.

Peace.

Marc1b:
So it would appear that you would be in favor of a U.S. style dictatorship similar to what we had imposed on Cuba before Castro. My only question is why?
thompson

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Post #: 116

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/22/2008 1:05:39 PM

MsBearlee

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Somebody, several pages back, wondered why Castro has not been murdered. Seems to me the documentary "638 Ways to Kill Castro" broadcast in the UK in 2006 and recently discussed on NPR when the director of the film, Dollan Cannell, was intervied... might be interesting to some of you. Yeah, read it while you insist we are such a peace-loving country interested only in things humanitarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/638_Ways_to_Kill_Castro Google it, there's a bunch more.

B

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This one, as well!

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Post #: 117

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/22/2008 5:12:50 PM

luckydog1

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Thompson, why do you think Cuba would remain stuck in time. Every other dictatorship that we felt a need to prop up durring the Cold war has been replaced by Democracies. Some even voting admirers of Castro. The idea that there were/are two and only two choices is simply not true.

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Post #: 118

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/22/2008 5:25:17 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

So it would appear that you would be in favor of a U.S. style dictatorship similar to what we had imposed on Cuba before Castro. My only question is why?

What have I been saying? I’m through defending myself against unwarranted presumptions. At least as far as this thread is concerned (I’m under no delusions that I won’t have to in future threads). I’m just too dizzy to go on (besides, it's the weekend). If others want to argue the pros and cons of Castro, by all means do so. I must say, however, that I find it perplexing that the wing of politics which prides itself on concern for human rights so willingly embraces a man who so blatantly violated them.

Peace and prosperity to you and yours (and to you too meatcleaver, and Sinergy, and whoever I’m forgetting).

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 2/22/2008 5:26:29 PM >

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Post #: 119

RE: Fidel Castro Resigns - 2/22/2008 6:23:12 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Peace and prosperity to you and yours (and to you too meatcleaver, and Sinergy, and whoever I’m forgetting).

..that would be me. Any chance of a response to my post #110?

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 120

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