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RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:06:25 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You are telling me that I can't feel good about my self or recover from greif till some one new loves me? Or till I love someone new?


I'm not saying that at all, Jeff.

Of course you can feel good about yourself.

I'm saying once a new loving relationship is established, you'd feel better. I believe it to be the point where recovery from grief occurs.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:07:45 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: mzbehavin

~ Love Yourself first.~


Thank you for a thoughtful contribution.

As for the quote, I've found loving myself is not enough for me to measure my value.

Anyone can love himself, egotists and selfish people do it a great deal. But that does not measure the worth of the soul that inhabits the body.

It is when I am loved ... when my love for another has such value I am loved in return, and by the quality of that love do I know I have value and worth ...

... in the eyes of another.

Therein lays the challenge for a Great Heart: not how much he loves himself, but how much he is loved by others for who he is.


You can get help for that, Seriously. If you don't you seem doomed to a woe is me life. And very few women will find that attractive. You are creating a self fullfilling prophecy here.

Jeff

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:09:47 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Oh bob...you're not actually trying to convince people that you alone hold the key to the one true way of grieving too???  How do you find the time being that you're also such an expert on mastering?
Why can't you seem to ever understand that what works for you, however wonderful and effective it is, does not make it wonderful and effective for others.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 2/20/2008 11:10:35 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:09:49 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You are telling me that I can't feel good about my self or recover from greif till some one new loves me? Or till I love someone new?


I'm not saying that at all, Jeff.

Of course you can feel good about yourself.

I'm saying once a new loving relationship is established, you'd feel better. I believe it to be the point where recovery from grief occurs.



I believe one should not get into a new loving relationship until recovery from grief occurs.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:11:54 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		All things considered....that was a very restrained post..:)

Jeff

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:13:54 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		So if I think that love SUCKS (and not in that good slutty way), does that mean I'll never recover from any grief??

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:15:29 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

and every submissive and slave I've known has issues like these: difficulties with trust.


Sounds like you are picking dysfunctional people.



I'm beginning to think there is no other kind

These people have explained their trust issues as remnants from relationships with those who were uncaring, unfeeling, disrespectful, abusive, etc.

With those who could be helped, I've helped relieve them of these issues.

Not all could be helped.

You can see manifestations of some of the more obvious members of that group in profiles where they go on and on about what they don't want and very little about who they are and what they do want.

Unfortunately, not all are so obvious. Many have learned to suppress symptoms until they find themselves in high stress situations where they revert to their true behaviour patterns.

It isn't deliberate on their part. These patterns are knee-jerk responses to perceived threat.

What makes it dysfunctional is no threat exists.

Some are able to see the distinction and escape their cycle of self-destruction.

Others cannot.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:22:09 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: mzbehavin

~ Love Yourself first.~


It is when I am loved ... when my love for another has such value I am loved in return, and by the quality of that love do I know I have value and worth ... ... in the eyes of another.

Therein lays the challenge for a Great Heart: not how much he loves himself, but how much he is loved by others for who he is.


You can get help for that, Seriously. If you don't you seem doomed to a woe is me life. And very few women will find that attractive. You are creating a self fullfilling prophecy here.



If the great challenge is to love myself then been there, done that, big deal, what's next?

Are you saying that's it? Anything more challenging than that requires therapy?

No one should stake his sense of self-worth on being loved by another?

What kind of love is that, that does not bear any risk to the one who would love? Love is not a convenience. Love is a need.

A need for the love of the one I love.

May not be necessary in casual relationships, but in life-long bonding I'd accept nothing less.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:23:25 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I'm just pointing out that there may be something going on that is causing you to pick these people with trust issues.  And I have an opinion that people who have trust issues have them mainly because they are the ones who can't be trusted and that is why they think no one else can be trusted.  It is foreign to them.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:25:57 AM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:


Maybe you should look at it from the other end. Imagine someone going to you, hey there is no way you have any self worth or confidence if another does not love you. It is just an absurd statement. Sure, it sounds good in the brain but basically you are writing that a person will be damaged goods until they are loved by another.


Yes, I am.


[snipped, emphasis added]

Please be clear that this is what you believe. In addition to profound loss you choose to give yourself--not peace--but a self reference and label of "damaged goods?" I'm so glad I don't believe this.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:28:19 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Why can't you seem to ever understand that what works for you, however wonderful and effective it is, does not make it wonderful and effective for others.


What can I say? I enjoy thought-provoking discussion.

And there have been so many contributions along those lines from sweetwenchie, Celeste, Jeffff, Reform, Kirren, Carlie ...

I promise, if I try to take over the world, I'll give you notice

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:29:19 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have said all I have to say except for this. I once found you amusing, now I find you sad. If you are able to snare someone,  I will feel sad for her too. I can't change the world , so I am off

Jeff

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:29:52 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		There is more than one way to grieve just as there are many ways to love.
We process it the way we have learned to through numerous factors including societal, cultural and familial norms.

How we heal  is complex as we are complex.

I have not seen the OP forcing his views; just sharing them and opening a discussion.



(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:38:30 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I believe one should not get into a new loving relationship until recovery from grief occurs.



With respect, for some kinds of grief, there is no such animal.

I lost my father when I was a boy. I have grieved the loss for forty years.

Some people cannot be replaced, nor should they be. The idea that we can stitch up the hole their absence has created as if it never existed is not realistic, as that hole leads straight to our heart.

You cannot simply ignore how much it hurts to lose the love of the one you lost when the loss itself makes you so aware of how much you love.

And each day you are aware of their absence because of your aloneness.

At some point, to use Celeste's words, you'll be "lying to use someone else to help you heal without telling them about it". In other words, you'll hang out with your friends and not discuss your loss but do things like fish, or play games, or just about anything to take your mind off the pain.

But you are still alone. And the absence of your loved ones is felt in the home, in your daily rituals, the food you eat, the stores you go to, the problems and successes you cannot share ...

It is not until the aloneness ends that healing can be completed.

Anyone who can forget has not known love.

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:40:10 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Sorry, that's just wrong. That's using someone else to help you heal without telling them in advance and giving them the opportunity to know what they're risking. Or do you really say "BTW my wife died and I just want you for a rebound relationship short term since the odds are that the person I like now isn't the same kind of person I'll be compatible with once I can stand on my own feet again and stop using you for a crutch?". Now, if you're honest about it and they are willing to risk it, fine. But I bet anything you aren't honest about it.


I think that in every healthy relationship there is healing of the past as a by-product.
In every meaningful relationship there will be some amount of spillage.
It is how we deal with it that fosters growth...if we are able to be open and responsive to it.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:40:52 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		streaks across room naked.....

yes...if you poke me, or pinch me...or pull my hair..... your grief will go away.




_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.
I am flawed.
Imperfect.
MUST SPANK!!!
SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:41:29 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		FR

....i concur with the premise that we all deal with grief in different ways. The five stages of grief may be a good rule of thumb for those on the outside to get a handle on what's going on, but it isn't the be all and end all.
My personal take on it is that grief can eat you up until and unless you make a conscious decision to do something with it. Sometimes, for the most sad and weak, that decision is suicide. For myself, after my children died i made a decision.......that whenever i came across a young person who needed help i'd give it. That seems to work for me, but everyone has to find their own way.....

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:43:06 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

So if I think that love SUCKS (and not in that good slutty way), does that mean I'll never recover from any grief??

Cali



Believe me when I tell you I hope you never experience such a loss where you will be able to answer that question.

If it can be done without love, I'd like to hear it from someone who has lost and loved again and did not notice a difference in how he/she felt before the new love blossomed.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:51:06 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I'm just pointing out that there may be something going on that is causing you to pick these people with trust issues. 


As I indicated, were their trust issues obvious and up-front, I'd likely step aside, or at least not invest as much of myself into their future as I do: be a friend, not a lover.

It is those whose symptoms do not show up till much later that involve me at a much deeper level, for in the absence of symptoms, I've grown to love them.

And I do not abandon those I love, unless it be their wish I do so.

quote:


And I have an opinion that people who have trust issues have them mainly because they are the ones who can't be trusted and that is why they think no one else can be trusted.  It is foreign to them.


I would not say that. Trust issues can arise from having one's trust betrayed and one's vulnerabilities exploited. Enough of those, and exclusively those kinds of relationships and it is easy to see how some submissives end up with inescapable trust issues.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:52:31 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I believe one should not get into a new loving relationship until recovery from grief occurs.



With respect, for some kinds of grief, there is no such animal.

I lost my father when I was a boy. I have grieved the loss for forty years.

Some people cannot be replaced, nor should they be. The idea that we can stitch up the hole their absence has created as if it never existed is not realistic, as that hole leads straight to our heart.

You cannot simply ignore how much it hurts to lose the love of the one you lost when the loss itself makes you so aware of how much you love.

And each day you are aware of their absence because of your aloneness.

At some point, to use Celeste's words, you'll be "lying to use someone else to help you heal without telling them about it". In other words, you'll hang out with your friends and not discuss your loss but do things like fish, or play games, or just about anything to take your mind off the pain.

But you are still alone. And the absence of your loved ones is felt in the home, in your daily rituals, the food you eat, the stores you go to, the problems and successes you cannot share ...

It is not until the aloneness ends that healing can be completed.

Anyone who can forget has not known love.


I am certainly not saying you will ever forget the one you lost, nor am i saying you will ever stop missing them. Perhaps my definition of actual grief is different from yours, but i do not consider missing someone and the inability to forget to be grieving. I consider it to be loving them still.
When i was again heading for a loving relationship i gave 100% of me at 100%. Anything less would have been unfair to my partner. And i could not be 100% while still in the grieving process.
Miss him? Always. Forget him? Never. But i no longer grieve...i choose instead to cherish and honor his memory.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 60
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