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RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:52:40 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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I think you are confusing the signs of someone who is ready to move on and attaching credit where there should be no credit. When a person falls back in love it is because they are ready. Lack of self worth or confidence is just not something you can fix out of love.

To me this is just a more specific example of the generic dominant disease of I want/need credit for everything that is good in my submissive’s life fiction that is scattered in other places in the message boards and profiles. It is the dominants issue with dependent personality. Look at what I fixed thing from low self worth as their own issue.

A person whether grieving or battling mental issues cannot be fixed by another. Another can help the person on their own journey of fixing. So there is no difference between a family member, friend, professional help, significant other or a dominant. They are helping the person they do not though control the path, speed of the path or the destination. The specific thing they are all doing is they are merely a tool and nothing more.

As you pointed out yourself the hope of love bread the ability to love again and not the falling in love was the cure. The path is familiar in general as Subforhire wrote but the journey is unique. To associate the end of the path (in a loving relationship again) as the cure is very short sighted and wrong.

< Message edited by toservez -- 2/20/2008 11:53:23 AM >

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 61

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:55:31 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

I don't know. I never got angry with my wife for her cancer, and I certainly was never angry with my son.

As for bargaining, one would have to believe there is a deity capable of such things.

To be honest, I think the solution to overcoming grief is to feel needed again. I would not have overcome the grief I've had were it not for the needs of others (like my pets) constantly goading me to do something other than wait for death.

I don't feel you have to have all 5 stages in order to grieve. Though I do believe all of us goes through at least one when we lose someone.
To me these same 5 stages also follow death. When diagnosed with say terminal cancer...you go through just about every stage as it starts to sink in.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 62

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 11:56:54 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

Maybe you should look at it from the other end. Imagine someone going to you, hey there is no way you have any self worth or confidence if another does not love you. It is just an absurd statement. Sure, it sounds good in the brain but basically you are writing that a person will be damaged goods until they are loved by another.

Yes, I am.

[snipped, emphasis added]

Please be clear that this is what you believe. In addition to profound loss you choose to give yourself--not peace--but a self reference and label of "damaged goods?"

I gave my response several minutes of thought and reflection (which does not count all the other moments I've given this matter thought), and I stand by it now.

I would rather deal with the reality than the delusion.

Certainly I want peace. But I know myself too well to say I will find it outside a loving relationship.

I would rather live than exist.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 63

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:02:29 PM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

For myself, after my children died i made a decision.......that whenever i came across a young person who needed help i'd give it. That seems to work for me, but everyone has to find their own way.....

Yes.

The care and nurturing you'd give your children you are giving to others who need it.

And their appreciation for your efforts helps you heal.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 64

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:03:41 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I'm just pointing out that there may be something going on that is causing you to pick these people with trust issues. And I have an opinion that people who have trust issues have them mainly because they are the ones who can't be trusted and that is why they think no one else can be trusted. It is foreign to them.

People who have been betrayed by the people they love often develop profound trust issues when they themselves have done nothing wrong....they have not behaved in way that makes them untrustworthy.

Your assumption of guilt really baffles and saddens me.

I am thinking of many reasons why someone might have trust issues that have nothing to do with their behaviors...
...of course there are those people alcoholics and addicts especially that do become suspiscious of everyone because they are suspect...no more so than to themselves.

However, I don't think that accounts for most people who have been so wounded.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 65

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:04:24 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

I would not say that. Trust issues can arise from having one's trust betrayed and one's vulnerabilities exploited. Enough of those, and exclusively those kinds of relationships and it is easy to see how some submissives end up with inescapable trust issues.

And this points to a flaw in them that they continually choose this type of person to form relationships with.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 66

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:05:31 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

Your assumption of guilt really baffles and saddens me.

I've been on the receiving end of it. And found it to be a truth.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 67

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:12:31 PM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I am certainly not saying you will ever forget the one you lost, nor am i saying you will ever stop missing them. Perhaps my definition of actual grief is different from yours, but i do not consider missing someone and the inability to forget to be grieving. I consider it to be loving them still.
When i was again heading for a loving relationship i gave 100% of me at 100%. Anything less would have been unfair to my partner. And i could not be 100% while still in the grieving process.
Miss him? Always. Forget him? Never. But i no longer grieve...i choose instead to cherish and honor his memory.

My understanding of "Grief" includes missing my loved ones.

Keep in mind my model involves my mother, who was widowed young and went on to find a second great love in her life. She reached a point where she did not miss my father, tho' she cherished her memories of him and shared them with my brother and I.

(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 68

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:37:13 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

For me, the sign that told me I was ready was when I started hoping for love again. Early in the process my mother had told me I'd be dating again. I laughed. The thought of dating was ludicrous. In my mind I'd had the love I was meant to have in this life and that was that.

But a very dear friend showed me I still had love to give, and that in giving love there was a good chance I'd receive it as well.

And it was so true of me that I found myself hoping to love and be loved again.

Grief is the loss of hope, or so it seems to me.

One of the silliest statements I have ever read....Grief is grief, fairly straight forward shit...If grief were the loss of hope it would be called the "loss of hope" in lieu of grief. How could those two ever be confused?...You are such a silly goose.

Whenever I find a "soulmate" I know that I will love again...It is often in the same day...Sometimes my soulmate is aware of the lovin' or might even jump right in, headlong straight into the fray!... Other times she might be left in the dark...For you see, Bobby, I am a scoundrel.

Will I ever love again? Sure I will.....

"Somebody fine
Will come along
Make me forget about loving you.
At the Southern Cross."

-Crosby Stills & Nash

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/20/2008 12:38:02 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 69

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:38:03 PM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Let's see if I can sort this out:

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I think you are confusing the signs of someone who is ready to move on and attaching credit where there should be no credit. When a person falls back in love it is because they are ready. Lack of self worth or confidence is just not something you can fix out of love.

To me this is just a more specific example of the generic dominant disease of I want/need credit for everything that is good in my submissive’s life fiction that is scattered in other places in the message boards and profiles. It is the dominants issue with dependent personality. Look at what I fixed thing from low self worth as their own issue.

Well before you make me posterboy, you might want to review my journal and read a little about how I believe a master/slave relationship is a harmonious balance of opposites each meeting the needs of the other.

In no way do I subtract from the glory of a slave nor her ability to heal.

quote:

A person whether grieving or battling mental issues cannot be fixed by another. Another can help the person on their own journey of fixing. So there is no difference between a family member, friend, professional help, significant other or a dominant. They are helping the person they do not though control the path, speed of the path or the destination. The specific thing they are all doing is they are merely a tool and nothing more.

I don't agree with your reductionist's argument.

Humans are always more than tools, and the one who is suffering must feel a connection with the ones who help.

Encouragement, reassurance, and support means more when coming from one who knows me well rather than one who doesn't know me at all.

In losing my wife I lost the one who knew me best. And to date there are no others tho' for a while there was one whose support meant a great deal to me.

quote:

As you pointed out yourself the hope of love bread the ability to love again and not the falling in love was the cure.

What I said was a good friend convinced me to seek opportunities ot love and be loved again.

This was not a cure, but rather an offer of hope that a cure could be found.

quote:

The path is familiar in general as Subforhire wrote but the journey is unique. To associate the end of the path (in a loving relationship again) as the cure is very short sighted and wrong.

Unless you happen to believe a loving relationship is the ultimate expression of the best of our humanity, in which case it is neither wrong nor short-sighted, but profound and liberating.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 70

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:44:01 PM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

I would not say that. Trust issues can arise from having one's trust betrayed and one's vulnerabilities exploited. Enough of those, and exclusively those kinds of relationships and it is easy to see how some submissives end up with inescapable trust issues.

And this points to a flaw in them that they continually choose this type of person to form relationships with.

Perhaps, or more likely dysfunction is not as obvious in some as you seem to be suggesting.

Nor do you seem to be taking into account the corollary of your previous assertion.

Just as it is true that those who are untrustworthy cannot fathom anyone being trustworthy, so too those who are trusting have difficulty believing anyone would be less than trustworthy.

It works both ways.

It is because of a slave's ability to trust so completely that I love her so deeply, and try so hard to restore that which was lost in those who have been harmed.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 71

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 12:50:51 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
<supa snippage>
It is because of a slave's ability to trust so completely that I love her so deeply, and try so hard to restore that which was lost in those who have been harmed.

Maybe the problem is that you are deliberately choosing 'harmed' or damaged people. In hopes of restoring them you are not looking for what you need but instead acting upon someone elses need.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 72

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:01:30 PM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Maybe the problem is that you are deliberately choosing 'harmed' or damaged people. In hopes of restoring them you are not looking for what you need but instead acting upon someone elses need.

I wish it were that simple, because then I could say "I've never thought of that before. I'll stop immediately."

But the truth is I do look for my own needs, and as with the lady most recent, she offered to meet them, and as time goes on I begin to love her and care about her well-being, and then symptoms start cropping up and rather than bolting at the first sign of trouble I stay and try to help her work through the issues.

If I'd become aware of these issues earlier, before the love, I could have chosen friendship instead.

I'm not trying to cast blame anywhere, I think what happened was not deliberate, but was tragic.

But I was so looking forward to this relationship because it looked like it would be the first with someone who did not start off with trust issues.

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 73

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:06:06 PM

Kirren

Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline

Like attracts like...If you are hurt and alone, then you will look for one that is hurt and alone. Nothing wrong with that...its wanting some one to relate to...some one to hold you thru it all and say...Ive been there...let Me help you...

But there comes a point when that damaged person's damage is too much, and you have to step back before you do something to them or yourself that is too much for either to heal from.

_____________________________

Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name

Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 74

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:14:23 PM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirren

Like attracts like...

The only problem with this truism is it does not take into account all of the qualities that make up a person.

I am also witty and intelligent, self-aware and compassionate, patient and understanding ...

I wish I could find such a counterpart (more hair on top, less of a beard and moustache

).

(in reply to Kirren)

Post #: 75

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:24:48 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

I have often nutured a sub back to health....Little in life gives me more pleasure then to watch a now healthy sub walk off on her own power into an awaiting world...

It's a little known fact that the film "Born Free" is actually a loosely based account of my interaction with two subs that were abandoned by their Dom. They were experiencing extreme psychological grief and loss...However, once under my guidance and love they resumed their strength and their ability to love....It was one of my proudest days when I released them as free women out on to the African Plains....If my memory serves me correctly I recall that a few days later they were torn asunder by a pack of hyenas...

Don't worry, I will love again.

_____________________________

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 76

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:30:05 PM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

Yeah, but you just quoted a shitty CS&N song. Your chances of finding love here have plummeted.

Neil Young

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 77

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:34:39 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

It's not shitty, it's D/s inspired!

And my love is an anchor tied to you
Tied with a silver chain.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 78

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:37:33 PM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

I grieve for you

Jeff

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 79

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 1:38:21 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

Interesting post, Bob.

Initially, I prefer my own company to think things through. Eventually, I'll get back on the horse and go down the pub with friends. The death of my Father when I was 19 was a rough old time, and there's no amount of words from anyone that can remove that sort of pain. You've just got to keep chipping away, and over time normality resumes. I tend to sort out my own problems because there's no one who knows me better than me; if anyone has the solutions, it's me.

In terms of your issues with women, there are plenty of women who have trust issues. Some women are like stray dogs that have been kicked and bullied and are crying out for a master to be kind to them and gain their trust - over time, they'll come 'round, and once you have their trust they're not going anywhere.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 80

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