RE: What is it? (Full Version)

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TracyTaken -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 9:00:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

You missed another joy that I have had to deal with when I worked as a counselor:
Can't move out of state or even across state as it would deny the abusing parent visitation rights.
Never mind that that parent was abusing you and the child.
Never mind that you fear for both your lives and advocates are saying it needs to be done.
Never mind that you cannot get a job to support yourself where you are.
Never mind that the job you have needs to transfer you elsewhere, or downsize you. 
Never mind that your parents or a relative may be the best help you can get right now.



Nevermind that the majority of women return because they want the relationship.  With your experience, there is no way that you can be ignorant of that fact.  So why don't you state it?   Why  make out any other thing in the vicinity of the vicim as the bad guy instead?  What do you hope to accomplish?

You surely also know that most women in a violent relationship are themselves given to violence.  Funny how it's never so clear as "good guy/bad guy" and is often more like "bad guy/worse guy."

If you think I have any intention of defending any strange case you may come up with, you have another thing coming.  I have done more than my share of work in support of women who are abused and have a pretty clear picture of the average case.  If you want to play the bleeding heart and say, "Oh, there's nothing these women can do.  Everyone and everything and all of society is out to get them!" so be it, but I think you care far more about an angelic presentation than addressing the facts.  You surely know what the facts are given your experience.  Don't you think the solution will more likely be found by looking at facts?  Your experience must have shown you that the vast majority of time, women return because they want the abuser back.

I'm in full support of denying a parent the right to take shared-custody kids across statelines, BTW.

Here's an article for you.  It talks about attempting to treat abusers and offering therapy for couples.  Why?  Because women return to the abuser the vast majority of the time - not because of poverty but because they cannot let go of the relationship.  "This would be one in the "women will not change, so we must change the abuser to save her life" category.  A blurb about women (it's mostly about men):

"Why do they stay?" As if that were all there is to it—the manufacture of victims of a gender hierarchy that encourages men to demonstrate their dominance. But the question is misogynistic; it fails to grapple with a very obvious fact: that between batterer and batteree there is a relationship, and a very powerful one. It has a dynamic that stubbornly defies what is well known at the nation's 1,300 shelters for abused women: the vast majority of battered women return to their abusers. If intellectual curiosity is not enough of a reason, then certainly protecting women requires that their marriages finally be probed.

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=19931101-000032&page=1

Given the hysteria brewing (not from you), I'm about to exit the thread, because I've had enough of that to last me a lifetime.  [:)]

Do consider that I am solution-focused in this.  All of the world could change and every law be written solely for the purpose of addressing any woman who is abused or who claims to be abused, and it still would change nothing the majority of the time.  Really, it's not the entire rest of the world that is the problem.  That's a good thing, since it would mean there will never be a solution.



BlackPhx -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 9:51:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken


Nevermind that the majority of women return because they want the relationship.  With your experience, there is no way that you can be ignorant of that fact.  So why don't you state it?   Why  make out any other thing in the vicinity of the vicim as the bad guy instead?  What do you hope to accomplish?

You surely also know that most women in a violent relationship are themselves given to violence.  Funny how it's never so clear as "good guy/bad guy" and is often more like "bad guy/worse guy."


I actually hope that you do not exit the thread. It is a healthy debate that may reach someone who needs to be reached, with both points of view. That is what I seek to accomplish if nothing else. And Yes, people who have been there, done that and fought their way free or are doing so, are going to try and help you understand that while you may file motions and restraining orders, the attitude that you project of "laying  blame at the feet of the survivor because they go back" is difficult for them to see. Especially if it took them more than one effort to finally get free or are still dealing with a court system that also victimizes them. When it comes to family court and child custody, we are all too often back in the realm of blaming the rape victim and exposing her past sexual life, instead of blaming the rapist. If she didn't report and record the abuse, didn't leave, why should the court believe it happened.

I also understand that those who work with the survivors of sexual abuse, D.V.,  rape, get very frustrated when these women and men go back over and over. The burnout rate among Counselors and Shelter Support is extremely high. It is hard to see them do this, to understand why they go back, we know the likelihood of them being beaten, put in the hospital, or killed is extremely high. But no matter how many times you hear the story, see the results, defend or prosecute, until you have actually walked in their shoes, you can't understand the reality. From the outside looking in the answer seems obvious, from the inside, thats an awfully thin rope, more of a thread really tossed to pull them out of that dark well, and there are traps all over it.

Yes women can be batterers. Yes they can be abusive. I never said they couldn't, never denied that there are women who incite the violence and will return like a horse to a burning barn. But some go back because they know nothing else. Some go back because they have been so demoralized, damaged, depressed that they feel they deserve nothing better. Some go back because they know he will just find them again. Some go back to protect their children or relatives and Some do go back because they need the relationship. Not all, not even the majority.Why because those who need and want the relationship rarely try to escape it.

Why escape what you need? I am not trying to escape my Master because he beats me, torments my body, drives me to my knees in pain and pleasure, humiliates me and in many ways would be called an abuser by anyone ignorant of my own psychology and needs and his. But you see he is not abusing me, and I have no need to escape what I enjoy and need. He is in control of himself, control of me, and aware of just how far to go before any damage is done. His greatest frustration is I am damned hard to mark at all, which also means it is hard for him to insure my need for pain does not exceed my bodies ability to heal. Weals and welts fade in moments and things that should bruise, just don't.

I have always wondered and would love to be able to do research on how many women get into abusive relationships seeking BDSM (probably not having a name for either the need or the submissive desire). How many of us here, at CM, who are actively in or seeking healthy Sado-masochistic, Dominance and Submissive relationships,  have been in Abusive Relationships or Marriages. I include Men and Women, all orientations in that question.

poenkitten



Missokyst -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 1:41:44 PM)

Holey smokes.. Linda?  I am convinced you were married to my ex husband.
He had everyone fooled, the courts, the next 2 wives, his family and friends.  Sociopaths are very good at what they do.  They look so good on paper.. and then you find out that the content was written with faulty data.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Fun, eh?  It's a slow erosion of spirit that takes place, and "trying harder" will never attain the target, because nothing is good enough for a sociopath.  But by then you're convinced that as hard as you try, you are a failure...In my case, I was convinced I was mentally ill.  He was good like that.



Missokyst -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 2:02:41 PM)

Here is what I did.  I put all of his stuff in boxes and hauled it over to his friends house.  Then I packed up anything I couldn't live without and put it in the trunk of my car.  I put blankets, a bucket, 3 gallons of water and some clothes and left.  It was my place and I left it.  I left the furniture, the stuff, ect, and disappeared for two weeks.  We lived in my car until things cooled down.  And when I got back, I filed for divorce.  He was pissed off, but I was calm enough and knew I could survive without him.  Living in my car was cake compared to my life with a sociopath.  We do have a choice.  Take it or leave it.  We make the choice when it comes down to us or them.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

PROVIDED YOU HAVE A PLACE TO GET THE FUCK OUT TO!!!



StormsSlave -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 2:38:27 PM)

Tracytaken,

I understand your viewpoint, and I agree with your sentiment.  These women go back even when the exit door is standing so wide open there's a draft blowing up their dress.  And we say woman, but it's man, too.  I can't hope to understand how difficult a time you've had in your situation, and how hard it must be for you to watch this happen.  I've seen it in women, and I don't get it.

I have tried to speak from my own unique experience, as I can only speak for myself.  I escaped, and never went back, nor will I ever.  It was the worst thing that ever happened to me.  I have often considered volunteering to help others, but the pain is still acute...

I promise you this...none of these women like this abuse.  I can tell you that I actually came to believe that there was no way out.  I can also promise you that not a single one of them really believes they can escape.  Until that happens, they won't.  And for some of them, there's love involved.  It's stupid, but there you go.  I wish I could explain, but I actually just don't have the words.



TysGalilah -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 3:36:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Wow, I normally have a lot of respect for CM posters but this thread displays about as much ignorance as I have ever seen here.
 Michael, could you please clarify this a little?  What are you referring to re: the ignorance  comment ??  Where do you see the ignorance?Are you saying those that stay are ignorant? or what others here that have commented are ignorant in their views?

Women who stay in abusive relationships were almost always raised in abusive relationships and those relationship patterns are imprinted deeply into their psyche.  Daddy emotionally manipulated/scared/abused mommy and so a kid grows up with that as their relationship model, the whole way they deal with the world is shaped by that experience.  It isn't about being dumb, it isn't about not having a place to go, it isn't about thinking at all.  I was raised to control others by being scary, she was raised to respond to that. 
And I was raised never to question authority figures. As a child, I was praised for being "seen and not heard"  "quiet...and unemotional".
I still as an adult shy away from confrontation. Rage in others paralyzes me.

I am not disputing your comment about "most who stay in abusive relationships were raised in abusive relationships.".  because, there is some merit to that.   I would like to add. though, that my father never abused my mother. Never even spanked me.  Never raised his voice or hand to another.  But his silence was deafening ( I use to say ) because I hated to displease him and he knew that was the harshest thing he could say to me and his silence was worse.  My parents did not abuse me.  I was raised in a very traditional 50s household with a dominant father and a submissive mother.  He was German through and through, very strict and old world views about raising children. 



Your comment about "the amt of ignorance in this thread"   makes me curious why you think that?

thanks : )
Cyndi






ownedgirlie -> RE: What is it? (2/25/2008 4:43:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Holey smokes.. Linda?  I am convinced you were married to my ex husband.
He had everyone fooled, the courts, the next 2 wives, his family and friends.  Sociopaths are very good at what they do.  They look so good on paper.. and then you find out that the content was written with faulty data.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Fun, eh?  It's a slow erosion of spirit that takes place, and "trying harder" will never attain the target, because nothing is good enough for a sociopath.  But by then you're convinced that as hard as you try, you are a failure...In my case, I was convinced I was mentally ill.  He was good like that.



*Grin* No, I'm not Linda.  And my ex doesn't have an ex wife.  He still considers me to be his wife.  He still sends me flowers, and really scary "love letters".  He is convinced we are still married and always will be. 

Unlike you, I was afraid to leave him, because of the bully approach.  Upsetting him was always scary for me.  I asked him to move out of our house and he wouldn't, so I left with very little - my clothes, my grandmother's bed, and an old set of silverware and dishes.

But my oh my did he charm everyone.  I was the bad guy for leaving.  He was the king of innuendos - "If only you knew how she REALLY is..."  to leave people wondering what was so bad about me.  But I rode it out.  Honesty does rise to the top if you let it.  Right now he has everyone convinced he is mentally ill and can't work.  That's how he got a court order to attach my wages.  But I will prevail over that, too...it just takes time and determination.



Missokyst -> RE: What is it? (2/26/2008 7:47:32 AM)

LOL are you sure you aren't linda?  Or Donna?  Or Lee?  LOL OMG there cannot be that many men like my ex.  He still works long enough to collect unemployment and then finds himself out of a job.  But he must still be charming, he is on his 5th wife.
Kyst



ownedgirlie -> RE: What is it? (2/26/2008 11:40:31 AM)

LOL No, none of those names.  We were married almost 20 years...and each other's first spouse.  It's just that sociopaths come from the same mold.  A friend of mine just went through something similar with her ex, except instead of emptying the house of everything she ever owned since childhood like mine did, he put all her stuff in a pile in the living room and lit it on fire.

Gotta love 'em.  [;)]



adaddysgirl -> RE: What is it? (2/26/2008 12:52:42 PM)

i haven't read any of the posts here so excuse me if i'm repeating someone else.
 
i am 50 years old and have 2 female cousins exactly my same age.  We were very close growing up.
 
Cousin A had a father who was both an alcoholic and a cheat.  This cousin remembers her mother dragging her around town to bars looking for her father, finding him with another female, and the horrific arguments that ensued.  my aunt finally booted my uncle out when my cousin was 4 years old.  my aunt was then left to raise 4 kids by herself.  She got a job, received $25/week child support, and went on some welfare then. 
 
Her entire life, cousin A has had alcoholic partners and cheats.  It's like it never ends.  She has been with her current partner 25 years and he is an alcoholic.  She has suspected that he has cheated but never confirmed, she stayed with him.  When drunk, he tends to get verbally abusive but i honestly don't know if he has ever been physically abusive to her.
 
Cousin B was also raised with a father who was an alcoholic and cheated.  my aunt stayed with him til all the kids were grown, then they divorced. 
 
This cousin has had all heavy drinkers for partners (if not alcoholics).  And they all cheated on her.  The last one, her current husband, not only cheated but got the girl pregnant.  And yes, my cousin stayed with him until just recently, i guess when she couldn't take anymore.
 
me, on the other hand, had a father i never saw drunk, who never raised a hand to neither my mother nor myself, and who to my knowledge, was faithful until the day he died.  And (perhaps) not surprisingly, these are the same traits i look for in a potential partner, and actually always have.
 
i once dated a guy who got increasingly violent as the relationship went on.  He started with "milder" stuff, like pulling my hair or grabbing the front of my coat when he was pissed.  Well, it finally progressed to 2 whacks to the face, at which point i dumped him.
 
If a guy who has never displayed any violent tendencies suddenly smacks his partner in a fit of rage, and he is apologetic and promises never to do that again....i could see giving that another chance.  But if he does it a second time, and his partner doesn't take some drastic steps, then she will appear accepting and moreso with each ensuing act of violence.
 
i tend to think that a lot of this has to do with upbringing....on both sides.  And sometimes it may not even be consciously recalled but something witnessed at a very young age that ended up making a (negative) impression.  Would i say this is 100% of the case?  Well, how many human reactions are 100% of the case?  But i would tend to believe it true in the majority of cases.
 
And it's hard to leave with kids, nowhere to go, etc?  Well, no one said it would be easy.  my aunt raising 4 kids on her own (3 of them boys) was not easy.  But unless you get out and establish yourself and your boundaries first....then make decisions when you see what happen then....you will most likely end up the victim of an abusive relationship.
 
Just my dollar's worth.
 
Daddysgirl



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