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Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 6:21:28 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		In "Fighting Submission" several participants talked about their struggle with submission.

I must say that to some degree it has been a part of the beginning of each relationship I've been in.

I've never known a woman who did not struggle to some degree with this.

For some the struggle was brief and relatively painless. For others it was ... something else.

The thing is during these struggles the relationship seems trapped in limbo, not knowing how she will resolve that struggle.

And needless to say, as I love those with whom I've been involved, so too do I want to help when she appears to be suffiering from self-doubt.

Now it seems reasonable to believe there are some for whom the struggle is so painful they never achieve submission.

And it is reasonable to assume that there are some for whom there is no struggle.

Thus it is reasonable to suggest that everyone else fits somewhere in between, where there is some struggle and no certainty of the outcome.

What advice do you give a master when he must deal with this woman, her struggle, and the uncertainty of her committment to the relationship?
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 6:34:25 AM   
LadyRainfire


Posts: 6040
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Excellent question because for some, time and gentleness is needed. Others, a firm hand and discipline is needed. Yet others still need both. But if she is that uncertain, then perhaps it is her and not you. Then you need to ask yourself how long you're willing to wait and work on the relationship before moving on.
 
For me, I needed time and gentleness but because I tend to dither in certain situations, I needed that firm, strict hand guiding me as well.  

_____________________________

"Desire is an insatiable beast. Sample your strongest dreams, and you will only crave more." ~ Master

~ one half of "L&L"~

My current state of mind

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 6:41:14 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The dominant should provide an environment in which the sub wishes to submit.  I can understand a struggle from time to time.  But if it's a constant situation I would guess that there is some incompatibility going on.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 6:48:35 AM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Have you ever thought that women just aren't submissive?
They just do what they think they have to do to get what they need to survive.

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 6:52:46 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Have you ever thought that women just aren't submissive?
They just do what they think they have to do to get what they need to survive.


This is the situation for some, no doubt (or so I've been told by some dominants).  Although they used the words to describe these women as "desperate for a relationship, too willing to please, would accept anyone."

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 2/24/2008 6:53:06 AM >

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to lateralist1)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:11:32 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Have you ever thought that women just aren't submissive?
They just do what they think they have to do to get what they need to survive.


This is the situation for some, no doubt (or so I've been told by some dominants).  Although they used the words to describe these women as "desperate for a relationship, too willing to please, would accept anyone."
she speaks the truth...
These girls are more difficult to decipher early early on.  They have a willingness to please that puts most subs(the ones i know) to shame.  At first, they seem to be totally unfamiliar with the word "No".  But little by little, the cracks begin to show. They slowly try to mold the D/s relationship into a vanilla one with "code names". i always wonder what happens to super sub about 6 months into the relationship...when she magically disappears.

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:17:04 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Have you ever thought that women just aren't submissive?
They just do what they think they have to do to get what they need to survive.


This is the situation for some, no doubt (or so I've been told by some dominants).  Although they used the words to describe these women as "desperate for a relationship, too willing to please, would accept anyone."


That may be their motive, but the symptoms I see most regularly is a need on the part of the submissive to control everything unilaterally.

It looks so much like topping from the bottom it constitutes role-reversal.

Now I'm not knocking switches, but that wasn't what I was seeking and I'm about as clear as I can be about what I seek.

When that happens I see it as a need of the submissive's to be reassured that she matters to me, that I can unbend from the dominant pose to be nothing more than a man in love.

And so I accept it and reassure her.

But it went on and on and on and ...

And each cycle she seemed to become a little more demanding, a little more picky, a little more ugly when she did not get the results she wanted (and she never talked about what she wanted, she just held it against me if I didn't guess).

I suppose it says something about my patience that I lasted the two months while this went on. Only recently accepted there was nothing I could do.

Thing is, because the struggle continued and because the outcome was uncertain, there was no way of knowing if or when I should give up.

Which, when you are in love, is a big, nasty, guilt-laden anxiety.

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:29:09 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

These girls are more difficult to decipher early early on.  They have a willingness to please that puts most subs(the ones i know) to shame.  At first, they seem to be totally unfamiliar with the word "No".  But little by little, the cracks begin to show. They slowly try to mold the D/s relationship into a vanilla one with "code names". i always wonder what happens to super sub about 6 months into the relationship...when she magically disappears.


Wow! That's my last relationship.

Except she was ultra submissive only during the dating. Once she moved in, the cracks showed up in a big way within two days.

And she has gone from advertising herself as a "slave" to advertising herself as a "submissive" with extra-emphasis on the vanilla.

Now this might appear to be a newbie who lost her way.

But the lady in question has ten years worth of experience and was so adamant that she was and had always been a slave she made fun of submissives.

All of her journal entries where she talked of her relationship with me were peppered with how right it felt to be my slave.

Unfortunately what she shared for public consumption did not reflect the reality (except during the good moments, of which there were enough to keep my love and hopes engaged).

Heart-breaking to read what she says she wants now.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:31:06 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		Have you ever met someone who simply cannot be a passenger in a car, must always be the driver?  Why is this?  The simple answer is...they don't trust the driver to make the same kinds of judgements and decisions they themselves would make.  It all boils down to trust.

i prefer to ride bitch-seat and have no desire whatsoever in having my own bike.  Mostly because my Master will always have many, many more years of experience in being the driver, he will always have better judgement on how His bike will perform and has learned hard lessons on what it takes to be an OLD Biker.  i respect that and i can relax and enjoy knees in the breeze because i trust Him totally with my safety and my life.  It all boils down to trust.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:38:11 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

It all boils down to trust.



Absolutely. I recognized that a long time ago.

That's why I try to be as candid and straight-forward as I can, to provide the foundation for trust to build.

But here's the thing: those who have had their trust abused do not give it nearly as easily later.

Have it abused enough, and they don't give trust at all.

In fact, they begin to expect betrayal so they do not treat the individual with courtesy or respect, growing hyper-vigilant for those "aha" moments when they can spring upon someone for a word or a phrase which they've misunderstood.

Repeat and recycle.

The decision to withhold trust, and the decision to no longer seek love are not necessarily made at the same time.

A lady can be seeking love, meanwhile unable to give the trust necessary to sustain love should she find it.


(in reply to eyesopened)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:38:17 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

Except she was ultra submissive only during the dating. Once she moved in, the cracks showed up in a big way within two days.


obviously when she got there, she changed her mind.  Maybe she was just as disappointed as you were.

quote:

And she has gone from advertising herself as a "slave" to advertising herself as a "submissive" with extra-emphasis on the vanilla.


and you changed your entire name and personna here...what is the difference really. 

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:39:43 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		When  I have struggled I asked myself the question:  Will this harm me? 
If the answer was ‘no’ then I worked through it on my own.
If the answer was ‘yes’ then a serous conversation was in order.
I don’t believe it is topping from the bottom when a submissive  is self-aware enough to know what would cause them damage.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 7:54:14 AM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

In "Fighting Submission" several participants talked about their struggle with submission.

I must say that to some degree it has been a part of the beginning of each relationship I've been in.

I've never known a woman who did not struggle to some degree with this.

For some the struggle was brief and relatively painless. For others it was ... something else.

The thing is during these struggles the relationship seems trapped in limbo, not knowing how she will resolve that struggle.

And needless to say, as I love those with whom I've been involved, so too do I want to help when she appears to be suffiering from self-doubt.

Now it seems reasonable to believe there are some for whom the struggle is so painful they never achieve submission.

And it is reasonable to assume that there are some for whom there is no struggle.

Thus it is reasonable to suggest that everyone else fits somewhere in between, where there is some struggle and no certainty of the outcome.

What advice do you give a master when he must deal with this woman, her struggle, and the uncertainty of her committment to the relationship?

Patience
consistancy
confidence in what you feel and bring.
Time.

Trust happens when it happens.

A question:
Do you remember what it felt like to first learn how to swim?
ok
what if the first time out there> you were told to "release all your breath, let go of the side and go under the water"
  would you have?
probably not.
most of us HOLD our breathes, taking as much into our lungs as possible to sustain our lungs.  IF we consider releasing the sidebar > we kick and paddle .  We don't just go under the water immediately without air in our lungs. If we consider dunking our heads > we are holding onto the side for the ability to re-emerge if needed.
It is instinctual to want to take a breath and hold our head above water at first.
This is what I think about when I think about surrendering  our control to dominance at first.
trust and time..learning we are not going to drown, in baby steps.
Even babies, when tossed into the water, will instinctively paddle and hold their breaths..

Laying on our backs, air released in and out slowly, floating and trusting that we are not sinking/drowning even tho' relaxed and at ease> comes MUCH later! ( this can also read as surrender or submission if you think about it)
~~~~~
I believe that the level of trust and the level of submission are going to coincide.  Trust in SELF first..and then trust in the dominant one.

I feel it is a natural course of things, that you describe.

subconsciously "testing" ourselves first!  " is this really what I want, who I am, if I CAN do this"..."will I drown?? ( reads: lose myself).  And then testing the dominance to know if it is strong enough...strong enough to "be there"  if I let my guard and self-control down.


no matter how many years the relationship exists> each time, we put aside our natural instinct to protect ourselves and take care of ourselves.
the URGE can lessen, and so does the level of resistance as the trust grows, but as humans I think the instinct will always be there.
So our submission, and the dominance it surrenders to > needs to be more powerful and feel more ,or just as, safe as the emotionally secure place we provide for ourselves.


Taking care of myself! was my natural thing to do, until I totally trusted that if "I" didn't > HE would : )
but that takes time
and goes against most of our human natures and survival instincts...
so not only are you asking her/him to trust YOU and give all of her/himself physically > you are asking them to ignore their instinct to resist risk, fear and feelings of vulnerability and self-preservation.  No easy job..and no simple accomplishment for either participant.







_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:02:46 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

Except she was ultra submissive only during the dating. Once she moved in, the cracks showed up in a big way within two days.


obviously when she got there, she changed her mind.  Maybe she was just as disappointed as you were.


We spent months talking, dating, she'd been here many times and knew what to expect.

Bear in mind her desire to live with me was initated by her. I did not suggest it, she did.

And there were no symptoms to suggest this was a bad idea.

quote:

quote:

And she has gone from advertising herself as a "slave" to advertising herself as a "submissive" with extra-emphasis on the vanilla.


and you changed your entire name and personna here...what is the difference really. 


Considerable.

First, people who know me far better than you would dispute that my persona has changed.

Second, I deleted my account as yet another act of love for the lady in question: a committment to her.

When it became obvious things had fallen apart, and I returned, I considered rekindling the old account.

But as I am moving this year, and have yet to decide where, "bobkgin" became problematic (it being a recognizable homophone for the town closest to me).

Thus the new account which is more representative of who I am rather than where I live.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 2/24/2008 8:04:44 AM >

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:09:11 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

Second, I deleted my account as yet another act of love for the lady in question: a committment to her.


tmi, but

if any man changes (his name) for me, that would make me the domme and him ..the passive. oh well, to each his own. carry on, carrying on.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:17:30 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

"bobkgin"


I always thought it meant Bob Cajun.

Anyway, if you have broken up with the lady in question I fail to see why you remain concerned with her profile and how she presents herself.  Perhaps these changes are a result of growth, on her part, after having been with you and now she understands more clearly what she wants in the next relationship.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:23:29 AM   
urtoy


Posts: 55
Joined: 4/23/2004
Status: offline 		I would be easier to answer if you gave some clue as to what exactly is disturbing you. If you doubt your partner's commitment to the relationship, it seems there's no trust and I'm not sure what that leaves you to build on. But so often I've heard a litany of what the "twue" submissive would do that doesn't coioncide with my concept of reality. For example, a dom requiring a severing of ties with family and long-term friends is asking the unreasonable, IMHO. Similarly, there are those who expect a submissive to relocate at the drop of a hat with no consideration to issues of family relationships and financial security. In both the above cases, I feel the request itself is unresonable. But that is just me talking. I hope you find what you seek.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:24:03 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TysGalilah

This is what I think about when I think about surrendering  our control to dominance at first.
trust and time..learning we are not going to drown, in baby steps.



Maybe this is silly but I'd have thought she'd have done all this while we talked/dated and certainly before she made the decision to move.

Excellent analogy, by the way

(in reply to TysGalilah)
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RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:27:28 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

Second, I deleted my account as yet another act of love for the lady in question: a committment to her.


if any man changes (his name) for me


I did not change the name for her.

I cancelled the account as it was my intention to focus exclusively on her, and to offer her reassurance regarding that committment.

Things had progressed considerably downhill before I launched this account.

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Humbly asking for advice ... - 2/24/2008 8:30:48 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I always thought it meant Bob Cajun.



I used to get a lot of ladies from the south-eastern US look at my profile

quote:

Anyway, if you have broken up with the lady in question I fail to see why you remain concerned with her profile and how she presents herself.  Perhaps these changes are a result of growth, on her part, after having been with you and now she understands more clearly what she wants in the next relationship.


Perhaps. But then I'd have to ignore everything she said in her unguarded moments.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 20
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