RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 12:00:11 PM)

Your still wrong!.........lol

Jeff



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 12:04:48 PM)

When a person gives an opinion without having done any kind of research, or even made any kind of attempt to read other people's viewpoints (the latter isn't necessary), then yes, such an opinion is ignorant, not just yours, anyone else's too, for that matter. There are instances where I have given an uninformed opinion and again, that's ignorant, however, I do make an attempt to listen to others' viewpoints, research what I can (when I can) about the subject. As for my animalistic comment, that also stands, any kind of knee-jerk reaction is done without thought, and stating you'd happily kill a couple kids while convincing yourself it's 'justice' is animalistic. I make no apologies for that, as I'm sure you won't for your comments either which are as offensive to me, as mine seemingly are to you. As for it being nasty, stating you'd 'dish out justice' by slaying adolescents is nasty, and your defensive reaction is perhaps b/c you realise it isn't actually NICE to have such thoughts, let alone be serious about their intent.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965
Morrigan - A bit late for you to back peddle now. Calling my opinion ignorant and uninformed was bad enough but coupled by labeling my reaction to being instructed on how to think or form a viewpoint as animalistic was uncalled for nastiness. There's nothing "tongue-in-cheek" about the arrows you slung at me.

When you can have the decency to treat another poster with the regard you'd like? Then I'll "lighten up". It has nothing to do with being defensive over a difference in the discussion; rather a point of etiquette which you seem incapable of grasping.



Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 12:16:36 PM)

You are so HOT when your angry..:)

Jeff



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 12:22:39 PM)

Oooh, jeff, that's me when I'm dispassionate, I'll let you know when I'm angry so that you can get your oven gloves out :p Besides, I'm saving my angst for Seeks. My couch is awaiting him, got the Novapro 100 fired up and ready - he WILL come around to accepting psychotherapy!



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 12:47:03 PM)

G'afternoon all:


Morrigan - Defending the "kids", makes you as much of an ignorant animal as they are. What these teenagers did, not children mind you, is of such an extreme nature to abrogate any sympathy whatsoever. If you're too dense to comprehend that, well, then I welcome you to ignore me. For I will loudly and vociferously defend a stance to introduce them to a world of denial and misery such as they heaped upon their victim. That was an act of callous indifference to the rights of the victim and they surrender any they had when they attacked her. Period.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



seeksfemslave -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 1:22:23 PM)

MsM Angst does not mean anger it means anxiety ie fear without an apparent identifiable cause..

Blue satin with a frilly edge lol. Say no more nudge nudge. 



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 1:30:13 PM)

Your logic, or lack thereof, is seriously warped. Wanting people removed and incarcerated, where they can be studied and receive treatment, not only for the public's protection, also theirs is animalistic? You really have a very loose grasp on reality if that's what you consider animalistic behaviour. By the way, a person can behave ignorantly at times without being generally ignorant. At all times I have referred to your comments as I have perceived them, I have not once referred to you as being an animal. If a person behaves sufficiently enough for a pattern to emerge then they will warrant such a title. It's not wise to make that mistake unless that's how you wish to be known.

Be loud, be vociferous - be INFORMED when you make that noise, Bella.

I am as outraged as anyone regarding the heinous treatment of the victim in the OP. One interesting thing you commented on was their attackers' indifference. We can all go about our daily lives shaking our heads in ignorance once we have 'put down' those creatures for their inhumane behaviour. Does it not interest you in the least to want to know WHY they have behaved as they have, and interest you further in wanting to see ways in which we (not you and I, society in general) can try and prevent such behaviour in future b/c I'm damn sure many similar incidents could have been nipped in the bud, so to speak.

May I ask you a question, Bella. Are you a mother? I am and I've done my utmost to raise my son to be a decent human being, which I believe he is and cannot ever see him disassociating himself from his emotions ot be able to commit such a cime as in the OP. If you are a mother, or are yet to be (if you do want children, that is), can you seriously tell me you could see it as your duty to do the same to your child as they have to someone else?  The thing is, regardless of whether it were my son or someone else's, if I was in a position to protect them from a lynch (typo alert - came out as 'lunch') mob I would b/c I am interested in seeing justice served and I truly believe throwing someone to an angry mob wnating to tear them apart is not justice, it's vengeance and how can we possibly see ourselves as being civilised if we give in to such animalistic behaviour?



DrummerDom -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 2:52:33 PM)

I absolutely can't believe this, this happened only a few miles from me and I hadn't heard anything about it.



luckydog1 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 3:20:42 PM)

The thing is, regardless of whether it were my son or someone else's, if I was in a position to protect them from a lynch (typo alert - came out as 'lunch') mob I would b/c I am interested in seeing justice served and I truly believe throwing someone to an angry mob wnating to tear them apart is not justice, it's vengeance and how can we possibly see ourselves as being civilised if we give in to such animalistic behaviour?

I am sure it was unintentional on your part, but why are you trying to change the subject Miss Morrigan.  Bella didn't advocate any lynch mobs tearing people apart, that I saw.  Again I am sure you don't mean to, but it looks like you are trying to change the terms of the debate midstream, and put positions on Bella she didn't advocate.  If that was intentionall it would be very dishonest, and rather lame.  And kind of silly to pretend an argument based on such a simply obviuos fallcy as "informed".



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 12:58:20 AM)

Bella advocated that provided she was granted immunity from prosecution she'd happily grant 'justice' in the name of the afflicted party and if the scumbags perished during her ministrations it would keep the American gene pool cleaner.
 
Bella is more than capable of answering any comment I ask of her, she is in no need of protection from you, luckydog, who could also have chosen a multitude of other comments which veered slightly off track such as socio-economic problems, communism are but two. So, if you'/d like to break down that comment of mine citing derailment I'd like to you to show me where I have done so given that one has to assume (based on Bella's own comments) the offending 'scumbags' would not walk into Bella's chamber of horrors unaided and I'd consider any group of persons wanting to administer retribution via means OTHER than legally no better than those who perpetrated the original crimes, a LYNCH MOB, what part of that is difficult for you to comprehend, Luckydog?

As you will note, besides the main topic of the OP being discussed, there are also several sub topics - all related, even if somewhat vaguely, however, when a comment is made and a question asked, it opens the topic up for debate on a range of issues, so criticise me, if you really care to, on the issues I raise, b/c they are done out of curiosity as I gain considerable insight from reading others' perspectives on these boards, but donning your armour really isn't at all necessary. You don't have to like my comments, at least try and offer something constructive such as your own views on the OP and the various issues surrounding it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
I am sure it was unintentional on your part, but why are you trying to change the subject Miss Morrigan.  Bella didn't advocate any lynch mobs tearing people apart, that I saw.  Again I am sure you don't mean to, but it looks like you are trying to change the terms of the debate midstream, and put positions on Bella she didn't advocate.  If that was intentionall it would be very dishonest, and rather lame.  And kind of silly to pretend an argument based on such a simply obviuos fallcy as "informed".



luckydog1 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 1:07:32 AM)

Actually I think the qualifier of being granted immunity from prosecution qualifies as legal sanction, and indicates that the courts were involved, and guilt had been determined.  Which is the exact opposite of a lynch mob, no trial or Government sanction involved at all. 

You know I don't post for your enjoyment.  I do however get annoyed at, and like to point out when people use the very lame tactic of changing what the other person wrote to argue against them.  If you don't like me doing so, please refrain from using such a basic fallacy in the future, or just ignore me.  It matters not.

My opinion in a case like this is after a trial and appeals, fry the bastards.  IF we really need to study them,  use a different method to kill them, and disect thier brains to figure out why they are such monsters.



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 1:21:38 AM)

Lady Ellen, my apologies for not replying sooner, you raise a lot of interesting issues. I do think you have a valid argument regarding the socio-economics, many of which I hadn't considered, so thank you for that. I also think the issues you raise should be discussed further in a separate thread, would you like to start that so that we can discuss it further there instead as I feel it really warrants its own topic?

What I find interesting is that often examples, from the poorer sections of society, are held up as success stories which falsely provides people with the facade that people are provided with the same opportunities, which clearly isn't the case and I think it does nothing more than garner an image with people in general that they are 'bad' as opposed to quite simply, disadvantaged.

Your own experiences I'd like to discuss further, if that's possible, either via another thread or directly with you, Lady Ellen.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Indeed, the problem is rather the reverse I find - that mental illness results in one falling down the socio-economic groups to the bottom. We covered this in A Level Psychology as an example of how statistics can be misinterpreted - most mentally ill people are in lower socio-economic groups, which may indicate that the poorer one is the more likely one is to be mentally ill, but which is taken to indicate rather than mental illness leads to a fall to the bottom.



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 1:35:10 AM)

Luckydog, I am unable to read your comment as you are on moderation, so not sure when your comment will be cleared. Would you like to email it to me?



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 9:38:36 AM)

G'afternoon all:


Morrigan- I don't want these little monsters studied and treated. I want them eradicated. Reason; this potential for violence is not treatable. It's a specific deficiency in their genetic make up. You can't correct it. You can't psycho analyze it. Not every mental dysfunction is. So, kindly hop off your high chair and come down to earth where normal people live.

Am I a mother, yet to be or wish to be? No. I do however hold a law enforcement title and naturally have an instinct to protect. Most especially those helpless to do so for themselves. Since you claim to be a mother, you find it hard to imagine anyone else's offspring to be truly capable of a redemptionless act. On the contrary, you should side with the victim's mother and howl alongside her for justice. I propose this; let's take your son, render him incapable of defending himself, and hand him over to the tender mercies of the two paragons of virtue named in the article. Let's lock them all together in a room for the same time period and then you tell me how forgiving you are. I bet your story will change. If not, you're a fool.

As to the lynch mob mentality you say I possess. I agree, the legal version of handling it would be civilized, but since they're minors, it's unlikely full and complete justice will be served. Hence why I revert to the instinctual desire to take matters in hand personally. This world is not civilized. If you believe that? You're living in a fantasy. It's evil, mean, nasty, and cruel to the core. Humanity, by and large, is the most despicable race of creatures. We're worse than locusts. There are a few sterling exceptions, a diamond among the coals occasionally, but so rare as to be nearly mythical. Drop the rose tinted glasses and wake up.

seeks - While I agree with your appraisal? It's not my nature to back down, ever. No matter how poorly equipped the opponent.

lucky - Some individuals can't be reasoned with. I do however appreciate you taking her to task. Thank you.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 9:58:31 AM)

Hi Bella

Your post is contradictory - on the one hand in the first paragraph you say that this potential for violence is not treatable and should mean eradication as its genetic. Then in your third paragraph you state how utterly evil and nasty and despicable all but a very few of our species are - which then surely indicates either that we all need to be eradicated as we all have this potential for violence since its what we are, or that these offenders should not receive harsh treatment since theyre only doing as their (and our) nature dictates.

E



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 10:20:53 AM)

G'afternoon all:


Ellen - I have not contradicted myself. You've taken it out of context. Which is fine. I don't expect you to understand.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 10:44:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Lady Ellen, my apologies for not replying sooner, you raise a lot of interesting issues. I do think you have a valid argument regarding the socio-economics, many of which I hadn't considered, so thank you for that. I also think the issues you raise should be discussed further in a separate thread, would you like to start that so that we can discuss it further there instead as I feel it really warrants its own topic?



I've long considered such a thread MsM; what puts me off is that is such a big subject, and for my ideas to work at all requires for all of them to be employed since each element functions interdependently of the rest; my agenda is not a pick and mix affair - and it soon would become that as far as the debate was concerned because (a) its too complex to deal with all at once and (b) many will not understand much of it and (c) some elements are very controversial in the current socio-political scene and likely to be seized on in isolation to try to undermine the whole.

On your other question in that post - yes, please feel free to mail me anytime.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 10:50:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965

Ellen - I have not contradicted myself. You've taken it out of context. Which is fine. I don't expect you to understand.


The thing is though Bella, it seems that none of us understand what youre conveying and that makes the progression of this debate rather difficult for me as I like to understand what people are saying so that I might contribute responses as I feel might be beneficial to the debate.

Please could you then explain your point again?

E



philosophy -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 4:06:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965



I don't want these little monsters studied and treated. I want them eradicated.


...thus proving how superior we are to them eh?

quote:

Reason; this potential for violence is not treatable.


...how do you know?

quote:

It's a specific deficiency in their genetic make up.


.....how do you know?

quote:

You can't correct it.


...how do you know?

quote:

You can't psycho analyze it.


.......how do you know?

quote:

Not every mental dysfunction is.


...treatable? No, but according to you either no mental dysfunction is treatable or we ought not bother finding out....

quote:

So, kindly hop off your high chair and come down to earth where normal people live.


...and when you get fed up with the normal people, come over here where the rest of us live......



Alumbrado -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/28/2008 4:57:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965



I don't want these little monsters studied and treated. I want them eradicated.


...thus proving how superior we are to them eh?

quote:

Reason; this potential for violence is not treatable.


...how do you know?

quote:

It's a specific deficiency in their genetic make up.


.....how do you know?

quote:

You can't correct it.


...how do you know?

quote:

You can't psycho analyze it.


.......how do you know?

quote:

Not every mental dysfunction is.


...treatable? No, but according to you either no mental dysfunction is treatable or we ought not bother finding out....

quote:

So, kindly hop off your high chair and come down to earth where normal people live.


...and when you get fed up with the normal people, come over here where the rest of us live......


Somebody's been reading too much Lombroso... or something....



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