Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Stagflation looming?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Stagflation looming? Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 11:28:21 AM   
airborne92


Posts: 62
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: airborne92

News flash for all of the people believing that the Carter Administration is responsible for night vision....you are fools. Night vision was developed back during WW2 by the Germans.


Are you suggesting the Germans implemented it in the US military in World War 2?

The discussion revolves around what administration put it into widespread use in our military and started using nighttime combat as the US military's standard practice.

Sinergy



Well, night vision came into use with the US military about 10 to 15 years before Carter took office. You might want to go read some actual history books.

As far as the Germans go, they developed it and their use of it on certain rifles and tanks introduced it to the US military. Carter had nothing to do with it.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 11:34:31 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

stagflation....Is this where you blow a male deer?


Well, the other definition is rising prices (inflation) in a shrinking economy (or...stagnated) which nobody wants to tell you emphatically disproves that supply and demand determine prices 100% of the time. The speculators ALWAYS determine the price of commodities with their futures contracts. (paper)

I see many still are seduced by the traditional capitalist propoganda about high prices and the resulting high profits that are invested into new sources of supply. Nothing could be further from the truth as exemplified by the fact that just since 2000 oil companies have been buying up other oil companies and refineries and have taken several MILLION bbls. of oil OUT of production.

BP closed down a Calif. refinery for 'maintenance' taking another 4 million bbls. out of production. The feds came in asked why now when you hadn't before ? Told BP to restart production and do your maintenance...just like every year. Gee, I wonder why they shit it down ?

Items: The oil companies as well as others use their profits...NOT to CREATE new businesses, but only to buy new paper (stock) or otherwise buy up other companies when they supplement their markets or enter into a new market.  So the oil companies have also been buying back TENS of $ MILLION of their OWN stock back.

IBM even just announced they are not going to invest in a business, create any new business but spend $15 BILLION cash to buy back their won stock.

People...ALWAYS follow the money. it's not about oil, drugs or computers...it IS ABOUT MONEY.

Oh, and Jimmy Carter is responsible for EVERYTHING that goes wrong...couldn't even get credit for doing every bit as much as Reagan did to end the cold war...maybe more.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 12:24:27 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

BP closed down a Calif. refinery for 'maintenance' taking another 4 million bbls. out of production. The feds came in asked why now when you hadn't before ? Told BP to restart production and do your maintenance...just like every year. Gee, I wonder why they shit it down ?



Because they want to make more profits.  Duh.

The more important question is why did the Republicans get rid of all the Government regulations that would have kept prices low, prevented corporate shutdowns done for corporate profits, and protected the Consumer.

And further, how can the Right Wing see what deregulated companies actually do and continue to blame everything done to them (without lube) by Corporations on regultion that would have prevented it?

Well, we are on a D/s BDSM web site, perhaps they like the whole Corporate (Deliverance hillbilly) meets consumer (Ned) aspect of deregulation.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 1:12:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The more important question is why did the Republicans get rid of all the Government regulations that would have kept prices low, prevented corporate shutdowns done for corporate profits, and protected the Consumer.

When did this happen? We don't have regulations about where/how/when an oil company can build a refinery? How about a nuclear power plant? That de-regulated too?

Come on Sinergy, I appreciate its difficult to speak to facts, but a hollow tangent? What happened to the infrastructure argument? The use of all that 1% GNP currently being used in Iraq? Rail Service? Or is your position's weakness better disguised by buzzwords like "Right Wing" or "Republican"; or "Deliverance hillbilly"? 

quote:

And further, how can the Right Wing see what deregulated companies actually do and continue to blame everything done to them (without lube) by Corporations on regulation that would have prevented it?
What's wing is promoting building new refineries, exploiting existing resources, building nuclear power plants, building an integrated inter/intra city mass transit system? I want to know because I want to join it.

What is whatever wing you are flying recommending? Or is blame, accusation, and name calling the limit of that wing's skill sets?

quote:

Gee, I wonder why they shit it down ?
They "shit" it down because talking 'shit' don't do 'shit' about solving problems.

Why invest in any new technology or manufacturing in an era of strict regulations and counterproductive environmental restrictions which would bankrupt any company foolish enough to try and overcome them? The religious right of 'global warming' has been very effective with their dogma. The results, including buying back stock, should have been anticipated. 

All complaints, plenty of name calling, but no solutions - typical. Next we'll be re-visiting 1947 and the formation of Israel. It's far beyond the any religious follower to realize its their own dogma and prejudice is holding back solutions.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 1:18:59 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Not sure what point you were trying to make, Merc.

I was simply pointing out that before Deregulation was done away with, plants were shut down yearly for PMs.

After deregulation was done away with, plants were only shut down to increase corporate profits by dropping the supply of gas.

Your post makes it sound like you want the US to be more like China; air you cannot breath, food you cannot eat, lead paint you can sell to other countries, bright red and bubbling rivers, and equal airborne mercury for all children.

You make the point that you want to join a party that thinks that way: http://www.immigration.com/china/

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 1:28:09 PM   
Feric


Posts: 227
Joined: 1/9/2008
From: San Francisco
Status: offline 		The proper cure for stagflation is a tighter control of credit and reinvestment of revenues in job retraining and investment in the economic and manufacturing base. Mainstream politicians hate this kind of solution because it requires sacrifice on the part of the voters, and is no magic bullet, while the radical right doesn't like it because it is not a "magic bullet" nor does it follow the "let the market cure itself" attitude that plays into their "business-friendly" philosophy.

Stagflation is a reaction of the market to overspending, unrealistic budgets, and consumer pessimism about the economic direction of the country. Given the housing/lending crisis, the staggering amount of consumer debt, and the continual wars in the Middle East, it should surprise no one that consumers are muttering darkly about the direction of the country. President Bush's recent assertions that Congress give no more money to domestic spending and continue to fund the wars at ever-increasing levels only magnifies the increasingly bleak look at the future. Stagflation is a natural reaction.

If our leaders want to change the situation and restore prosperity, then they must demonstrate a willingness to reinvest in the country.



_____________________________

A figure of startling and unexpected nobility...

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 1:46:09 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Your post makes it sound like you want the US to be more like China; air you cannot breath, food you cannot eat, lead paint you can sell to other countries, bright red and bubbling rivers, and equal airborne mercury for all children.

Wow - sorry about that, I was unaware that you were so devoid of possible solutions that you need to raise a comparison to China's environmental problems. I take it that would be your reaction if anyone was so foolish as to try to build the infrastructure you wanted a few posts ago? Now you, and those who share your views, have a reference point of why things don't happen.

However, since you bring China into the discussion; wouldn't China provide the ultimate example of the result all money and industry in the hands of the government with its people beholding to their 'nanny'. I thought that was an ideal state of being that you supported?

Exactly which of these positions are you now backing away from; the need for change in policy regarding US energy self sufficiency, and building infrastructure, or the desire to abdicate most personal liberty and ability of self determination, as well as private enterprise, over to the State?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/28/2008 3:07:57 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

However, since you bring China into the discussion; wouldn't China provide the ultimate example of the result all money and industry in the hands of the government with its people beholding to their 'nanny'. I thought that was an ideal state of being that you supported?



Well, no.

You are thinking of the Maoist attempts to gain control over the means of production in the 1960s or so.  It was discovered that such rigorous government regulation did not provide businesses the profit margins they feel they so justly deserve.

I dont know what they call it, but China went capitalist years ago, with a veneer of fascism to keep things running tip-top and Bristol fashion, should the consumer object to black lung, asthma, etc.

China is an example of the sort of world you Right Wingers want to create.  The government subservient to the profits of big business, the people dying of the excesses of business profiteering, indifference to the long term outcomes of one's corporate actions, the theory that the pollution I do will be cleaned up or made somebody else's problem by other people after I am dead or retired, etc.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 7:28:58 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		a
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

However, since you bring China into the discussion; wouldn't China provide the ultimate example of the result all money and industry in the hands of the government with its people beholding to their 'nanny'. I thought that was an ideal state of being that you supported?



Well, no.

You are thinking of the Maoist attempts to gain control over the means of production in the 1960s or so.  It was discovered that such rigorous government regulation did not provide businesses the profit margins they feel they so justly deserve.

I dont know what they call it, but China went capitalist years ago, with a veneer of fascism to keep things running tip-top and Bristol fashion, should the consumer object to black lung, asthma, etc.

China is an example of the sort of world you Right Wingers want to create.  The government subservient to the profits of big business, the people dying of the excesses of business profiteering, indifference to the long term outcomes of one's corporate actions, the theory that the pollution I do will be cleaned up or made somebody else's problem by other people after I am dead or retired, etc.

Sinergy

The length and breath of your solutions is very telling.

And its now "right wing" to put in place the very things you suggested earlier - infrastructure and energy self sufficiency. Doesn't that make you a "right winger"? But the best is that China is now a bastion of right wing idealism. Socialism generating profits is now "Capitalism" and "right wing"? DAMN! That's funny as hell! Seriously, that's your answer? That reconciles for you? Maybe you should try to come up with some substance instead of trying to wrap a label around everyone to make you feel clever and know something on the subject. Sinergy - your need to label and blame, combined with the inability to appreciate any other perspective but your own prevents you from every being part of any solution. You do a disservice to yourself.

To put the question back on point.

OP - During the 30's there was government intervention to jolt the economy. Of course the real solution was WWII which put everyone to work, but meanwhile, we built dams, highways, and other projects which benefited the country and its citizens. I doubt many of these exact same projects would be build under the current environment of litigation and environmental protectionism. Who knows how many blind salamander and other species were 'lost' in the flooding of lands when Hoover Dam was built?

Would you support sweeping legislation to put aside these barriers as an initiative to do built nuclear power plants throughout the US, additional dams, and mass transit facilities such as rail?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 7:58:55 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Would you support sweeping legislation to put aside these barriers as an initiative to do built nuclear power plants throughout the US, additional dams, and mass transit facilities such as rail?



Lets take just one example, a city I know well, Los Angeles.

The integrated rail system was largely destroyed by big oil and big auto back in the 20s or 30s, and with the development of the freeway systems the city was visited by huge amounts of urban and industrial sprawl.  The main problem with the Green Line, for example, is that it is the beginning of a rail infrastructure but fails to connect up enough people to do much of anything.  Juxtapose this with Chicago.  Live way out of town, take the El in to work.  Take a 3 dollar cab ride to lunch, take the El home.  My buddy lived in Chicago for 3 years without owning a car.

Chicago has centralized downtown and industrial centers.  Los Angeles does not.  So the scope of connecting up people who live in Long Beach and Burbank and Riverside to get to their job in Santa Monica is almost mind-numbing.

To blame this on the environmentalists seems rather obtuse and ignorant to me.  I dont recall saying that the money used in Iraq would entirely pay for it, but I am happy to hear you think the 1% of our GNP was well spent by invading a foreign country in violation of international laws the US was instrumental in developing.

Sinergy

p.s.  I dont have a problem with nuclear power.  There is a guy in New York that is trying to market plasma reactors which turn trash into electrical power, hydrogen, and a non-toxic slurry, but various power companies are doing everything they can to put him out of business.  Plasma reactors make more sense to me than developing nuclear waste we have no idea what to do with.  The primary problem I have are with people who seem to think if we cannot exploit a limited resource or invade sovereign nations, and create a bigger problem for future generations to deal with, it is an unworkable solution.



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 8:47:24 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		I'll leave it to you and others to place blame and history. Blame doesn't contribute to solution, and history without context and perspective is a waste of time, except as a parlor pastime.

I did need to check a source. My memory regarding 1% concerning the current war was wrong, or at least changed since I looked at it last. Its actually 2%. I guess you would use that to say my memory percentage was 100% understated? For accuracy purposes:
quote:

Robert Whaples, professor of economics at Wake Forest University, has measured the cost of each major American war up through the first Gulf War. We took these costs and compared them to the cost of the Iraq war and found that the Iraq experience has consumed a smaller percentage of GDP (just 2 percent of one year’s wealth creation) than every other American war except the first Gulf War (which measured just 1 percent of GDP).
Source: http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_buzzcharts/buzzcharts200601230854.asp 


Facts are fun huh!

And I lived in NYC without a car too - the relevance about no rail line between major cities? The relevance to doing something about LA today?

Read any and all of my posts again, I posed the question and didn't blame environmentalists. However what would you give as a reason for no new nuclear power plants in the US in decades? Litigation and environmental prohibitions make it impossible. Since you didn't answer would you get rid of all current restrictions and facilitate construction of new plants now, theoretical plasma, or models similar to those working for years all over Europe?

Your problem regarding legal roadblocks put in place inhibiting development of new energy products would be served by a loser pays civil court system. Would you back that too?

The rhetoric about "future generations" and references to "people who seem to think if we cannont explolit..." isn't a solution or even a problem. And 'good intent' toward "future generations" should get this current generation off the hook from doing something.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 9:26:50 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Plasma reactors have nothing to do with Nuclear power.  They are very cool things, but far better for waste disposal than power generation.  They don't make a lot of power.  The "stable contained high energy plasma" technology is a direct spin off of the Star Wars program, which I was pretty sure I was told produced absolutly nothing.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 11:12:16 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The same problem occurs with the nuclear power. It's used extensively in Europe, but in the US it is environmentally cost prohibitive.



Thought this referred to the environment.

My bad.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 11:25:27 AM   
airborne92


Posts: 62
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		A question for all of the people talking about the use of plasma reactors, do you realize what plasma is?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 11:27:48 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

The "stable contained high energy plasma" technology is a direct spin off of the Star Wars program, which I was pretty sure I was told produced absolutly nothing.



Which project was that, luckydog1?

If you read my points, the missile defense shield (linchpin of Reagan's Star Wars) does not work after 30 years of research (despite the missile that was fired at a homing device), is technically almost impossible by design (there is only one point in the launch of an ICBM where it can be targetted by existing and workable technologies) in terms of physics, and provides endless corporate welfare to Aerospaz companies.

Sinergy


< Message edited by Sinergy -- 2/29/2008 11:28:36 AM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 3:27:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The same problem occurs with the nuclear power. It's used extensively in Europe, but in the US it is environmentally cost prohibitive.


Thought this referred to the environment.

My bad.Sinergy


quote:

I am happy to hear you think the 1% of our GNP was well spent
It's 2% but where was it said or inferred by me that it was "well spent"?

Will ever respond to a question?

Your words...
quote:

Since you asked, I would have used all the money that the Dipshit in Chief used to invade Iraq to rebuild the US infrastructure on an intelligent model, like Europe, which would move us off the Standard Oil / Automobile Company model that is of limited duration and expensive as hell, and to rail based like you see in Chicago or New York.


Energy self sufficiency YOUR stated goal, obtaining pretty quickly, at least on the electricity generating side, with nuclear power. Just like the "intelligent model" you referenced - Europe.

Rail service, facilitating mass transit another of YOUR identified problems, inter and intra city without the need of environmental study.

The 2% GNP wouldn't pay for 10 miles of environmental study between LA and Vegas or a direct line from LA to SF as long as lawsuits and environmentalists stand in the way. Now what? How do we address this, copying using your European "intelligent model"?

Where are you, labeling, name calling, and tangent aside?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 3:48:01 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: airborne92

A question for all of the people talking about the use of plasma reactors, do you realize what plasma is?


A superheated-excited gas (say nitrogen impurified with oxygen) surrounded by an inert gas shield (say argon, for example?)

How'm I doin'?

Ed Koch

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to airborne92)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 4:14:11 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

According to Chomsky, Carter is the one who started funding the Mujahdeen against the Soviet backed coup Government, and intentionally got the USSR to invade.   Hardly seems like a Peace Prize deserving action and legacy.  But they admitted it was just a political thing, nothing to do with his actuall acomplishments.


There was no Soviet backed coup in Afganistan. Soviet KGB agents and military went right in and shot everybody down including all of the secretaries and the whores that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. To back a coup is to back internal forces who wish to take over the govt. The Soviets needed none...they went in and took over. 
 
Afterwards...they made a few Afgan govt. flunkies an offer they couldn't then refuse.


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 4:45:03 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Mr rodgers, you should look at a history book.  A soviet backed coup in 1973 put the Marxist Peoples Democratic Party of Afghanistan in power, ending the traditional Monarchy.   In 1978 a group of radical Army officers staged a coup (one faction of Marxists against the other), and after thier victory increased the pace of unpopular reforms to the public, which caused a massive rebellion to break out.  The next year the USSR invaded to back the coup. 

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Stagflation looming? - 2/29/2008 4:45:49 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

As long as we're blaming Carter for stuff...

Funding for development of cruise missiles.... under Carter
Kevlar for military use.... Carter
Nightvision tech.... Carter
Predator..... Carter

He was the first President to see that we had an opportunity to utilize high tech to give us a major advantage on the battlefeild... It was also under his admin that we began our paralell development of cyber warfare. At least, he was the first President since the funding of the Manhattan Project, who saw the potential of the emerging new technologies.

As long as you're blaming him, be sure to blame him for the 11th hour release of our hostages. Regan took the credit, but Carter did all the work. (Fucking oportunist Republican dickhead Regan was, he perpetuated the myth that it was fear of him that caused them to be released. In fact, it was a six month long backdoor negotiation on the part of the Dems that got them home.)



What far too many people want it seems is...to not realize, or forget or deliberately omit the fact that Jimmy Carter was the one who after much turmoil and demonstrations in Europe...got our Intermediate Range Nuclear missiles actually deployed and installed in the European countryside...on our tab.

When the Russians saw that...they knew it was over.

I think there is credence to the idea that Iran delayed the return of our hostages for Reagan as they had signals they could work with them.

Turns out they could.

Oh and while we are on the subject...Jimmy Carter is responsible for everything that has gone wrong in western civilization for the last 30 years...don't ya know...

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/29/2008 4:54:05 PM >

(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Stagflation looming? Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094