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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/1/2008 1:40:22 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: airborne92

We have untapped oil fields up in Alaska that the environmentalists are peventing anyone from fully exploring and utilizing. Is this a long term solution? No, but it could very well be a short term solution until we as a country realize that some of the laws and "crusades" we have in this country concerning energy and fuel are hindering any progress, and set about working on finding a better energy production method.



The article I cited seemed to think that once the plasma reaction occurred, the energy output was greater than energy input.

The problem with exploiting the arctic reserves is that mileage standards in the US have not changed dramatically since the Evil That Was Carter forced higher standards on the industry.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to airborne92)
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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/1/2008 1:59:05 PM   
airborne92


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: airborne92

We have untapped oil fields up in Alaska that the environmentalists are peventing anyone from fully exploring and utilizing. Is this a long term solution? No, but it could very well be a short term solution until we as a country realize that some of the laws and "crusades" we have in this country concerning energy and fuel are hindering any progress, and set about working on finding a better energy production method.



The article I cited seemed to think that once the plasma reaction occurred, the energy output was greater than energy input.

The problem with exploiting the arctic reserves is that mileage standards in the US have not changed dramatically since the Evil That Was Carter forced higher standards on the industry.

Sinergy



It might be for a brief period of time, but you have to maintain an extremely high level of energy input to maintain the conditions for coverting the matter from one state to another (solid to liquid to gas to plasma). You can bypass one or two of the states (liguid and gas) but the amount of energy needed to do so and maintain the conditions required is enormous and will be greater than what you can create. That is the problem. Also you have to build these reactors and that involves a whole new set of problems with zoning laws, environmentalists, and so on. In addition, until these facilities pay for themselves and start running at a profit, we will still be dependant on the methods we use now.

As far as the mileage issue is concerned, that falls onto us as consumers and again the solution will not work for everyone. We need to dictate to the manufacturers that we want more economical vehicles, but some people will need vehicles that will never be fuel efficient.

If it takes 20 years for one of these new reactors to show a profit then the companies are not going to want to invest in building more. If they can show a profit within 5 years then we are more likely to have more of them built.

This is my point, there is more to the problem than just science or economics. It is how everything works together. It is our culture, science, economics, politics, the environment, and our own laziness that have to be looked at and dealt with.

Take a look at how you view your ideal in the BDSM lifestyle, and yes I know some will take offense to that term. Is how you view an ideal relationship in the lifestyle, for the lack of a better term, the same as everyone else's ideal? Will what works for you, work for everyone else? The answer to both questions is most likely no. The same applies to how to deal with any problem. Everyone has to be willing to give at least a little to find a compromise that most, if not everyone, can live with.

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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/1/2008 2:06:44 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: airborne92

Take a look at how you view your ideal in the BDSM lifestyle, and yes I know some will take offense to that term. Is how you view an ideal relationship in the lifestyle, for the lack of a better term, the same as everyone else's ideal? Will what works for you, work for everyone else? The answer to both questions is most likely no. The same applies to how to deal with any problem. Everyone has to be willing to give at least a little to find a compromise that most, if not everyone, can live with.



I agree.  I see myself as a conservator of the earth, not a user of the earth.  I want to leave it in better shape than I found it.  Users push nuclear or petroleum or coal power as the only means, rather than think in terms of renewable energy sources like solar or wave or geothermal or whatever.  Thinking in those terms means that one has to economize the use of energy, rather than seek new things to exploit.

The plant cited in that article is already running profitably and producing energy. 

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/1/2008 2:09:09 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Let me interject a quick question, clear things up in my own mind.  Is there a general scarcity of garbage that the media has not yet alerted us to?

Maybe we could convert them into coal fired plants if we run out.

I think 10-20 years means we better get on with it, tapping the 'vast energy reserves' seems to me to be the last thing we should do instead of the first, and unless I am very much mistaken, the 'vast energy reserves' would lie dormant until such time as they were needed with no ill effect, should it turn out that it is going to take longer timeframes and more research to find useable alternative energies than we had hoped, say 10-20 years down the road? bOur doomsday ace in the hole as it were. 

Just saying.

Ron  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/1/2008 2:35:36 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/1/2008 4:21:41 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Ron, the idea of feeding Coal into a plasma reactor is a great idea.  There is another similar process that uses microwaves instead of plasmas to do the same basic thing

Airborn is really confused. As sinergy pointed out, these plants do work, and are in operation.  I posted a link to one of the comapnies acutally doing it, for some reason he ignored it.  And they are almost instantly making money, because people already have to pay to get rid of the garbage, some of the excess energy can be sold, and a usefull gravell like product is created as a by product, that can be sold (though not for very much). 

Great stuff...

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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 4:19:20 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		As I said, there was a write up in Mother Earth news on a low tech coal-fired plasma furnace for the home some twenty odd plus years ago.  Pretty damn efficient (read: yes the total energy input exceeded output, coal had to be added) , and I don't think the whole reactor hooha was larger than a 1/2 gallon.  I have the article in a box around here somewhere, but no links (perhaps some genius can find a link)

Get stuff like that outta the cottage shops again, take them from curiousities to marketable and away we go.  If anyone remembers Mechanics Illustrated, Smokey (ask Smokey, a pre-ClickandClacktheTappetBrothers guy, who could hardly be characterized as a fruitcake) built a high (like 100-250 I don't exactly remember but far exceeding that which is out there now) mpg engine with readily available parts (and a couple special machinings) vehicle out of a chev 260 or some such everyday engine. 

Were we, the American People, bite the bullet a little and were to fund this sort of research and development at the level we did for StarWars research thru the National Science Foundation and other quasi-governmental agencies or Iraq, we would be out in front of the curve and have the rest of the world by the fucking nuts when  fossil fuels became an untenable energy source *WHICH ABSOLUTELY NO ONE CAN HAVE ANY UNCERTAINTY THEY ARE GONNA RUN OUT*

We did a large share of fucking up this old world with some of our consuming ways, but there is a silver lining, dig the shit back up and re-use and re-consume it in alternate ways, and at higher efficiencies. Hey, we did it with taconite.

When the Japanese can come to America and buy junk cars, coal from South Africa, coking coal from Ceylon, take it out to see on a ship and refine it, bring it back, and sell it to us cheaper than we can make it, I gotta believe that Andrew Carnagie would say 'This is a fuck of a good time to get in the iron business."


Ron

Diploma
Roosevelt Senior High School
Fergus Falls,  Minnesota 56537

 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/2/2008 4:25:24 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 2:29:10 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		In my city they wanted to install one, NIMBY people freaked out and opposed it.  So we continue to store toxic waste at the site proposed for the plams reactor, waiting untill we have a full load of serious hazourous waste to put onto a boat to ship to Oregon for Disposal, risking a spill the entire way.  A lot of people thought it  had something to do with Nuclear energy, and opposed it out of reflex.

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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 2:39:45 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Ron, the idea of feeding Coal into a plasma reactor is a great idea. 



I really think we should empty every landfill on the planet before digging up coal deposits.

But that is just me, and I have been known to have been wrong before.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 2:58:21 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Allow me to more clear sinergy, yes I agree with that 100%. 

We should mine the landfills.  My understanding is that this process does not produce a huge amount of excess power though, and that we would quickly exhaust the Garbage mines and current waste stream.    Or to run the garbage mines for a 30 year period you get very little energy per year.  Requiring other sources.  If there is no need to, I agree let's not dig up coal.  Seems like a reasonalbe strtagey to continue using the existing mines durring the transition period, though.

The process is beautifull  though  Ultra clean coal usage with no CO2 emmisions or sulfur or Mercury and a useful carbon powder that can be used in Carbon fiber construction materials.

Something I have wondered about this process is what would happen if fed water?  Would that produce a sustainable reaction?  I don't actually know the equations.  But if it did, you could use it in conjunction with a Fuel cell as a desalinator, right?  Or you could have one on board large ships, to power the entire thing, and feed the bilge water into to sterilise it? 

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 3:26:29 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and of course, there is always the spector of hybridization that could be raised, coal and garbage, get the coal companies behind you and garbage haulers, electrical concerns and whatnot.

Additionally, if one swapped over to hemp in the wastelands and fallow areas, for ethanol, and give up this ridiculous notion of 'food crops or gas' (guns or butter again, that is the best the governments can produce under their own power) and use proveably more efficient grasses, well, toss that shit into the reactor too.

If the genome tech were advanced we could have the super nitrogen fixing bacteria and super carbon sequestrating bacteria in no time...look how far they have came with the oil eating bacteria thingies whatever, fuck a bunch of sheep (not meant in a TOS violating way).

Yes, American industry, inventors, individuals, backed by the government could get this underway, and well into viable usage  and a great deal of it in short order.

Revolution!!!! Revolution!!!! Give me a reason!!!!! Give me a cause!!!!!

Let's burn this motherfucker down!!!!!

H. Rap Ron   

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/2/2008 3:37:16 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 3:53:31 PM   
Sinergy


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The other half of the equation is conservation.  We need to establish more energy efficiencies.  Rail systems, cars that use less energy, energy efficient lights, etc.

But when a lobbying company (like a gas company) knows they can mandate 30mpg or 300mpg, and the consumer wants to go 300 miles between fill-ups, and another lobbying company (like an auto manufacturer) knows you have to spend huge amounts of money to make it more efficient and it makes the vehicle cost more, which do you think will be lobbied for?

It is not just finding a new energy source that is required, a new paradigm needs to be developed and implemented before our supply or lack of dictates that we will have a new paradigm.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Stagflation looming? - 3/2/2008 4:26:37 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and agreed. But the real politic is that you are gonna have to sit the coal company down, the automaker down (hell, they wont even do cheap here) that is why they are getting their ass wiped by foreign manufacturing, the oil company, the conagra the ADM, the Northrup King, the ......well so on, and you need the people, the conservators, the consumers on the other side and say look....

there will be no altruism anywhere, and there are gonna have to be laws come out of it.  Like RJ Reynolds, they will come to an agreement if you let them live.  Coal, will have to know it is going to live, allotta the coal miners are gonna have to give pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanioniosis and go mine garbage, they gotta live, and so on, and so forth.

You sure as fuck aint gonna cut off the fucking lobbyists at the knees with congress .  It is gonna have to be an open and public forum,

It ain't a new paradigm yet, first there has to be a very fucking messy divorce

Not said well, but said right, and you are a clever dude Sin, you know what I am;

Just sayin'    

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/2/2008 4:37:07 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 112
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