RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (Full Version)

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BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:59:32 AM)

Quite possibly. And I'm not saying you're wrong or anything...I'm simply providing an arguement by providing a different point of view...trying to ...stimulate conversation and I hope that can be appreciated.

Structured enviroments...military situations...hostage situations...let's raise the bar...we're talking bout our lives not just work...so let's talk about siuations where lives are at steak.




Dnomyar -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:05:06 AM)

Sound like me this is more an argumentive post than asking someones opinion.



ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:14:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Quite possibly. And I'm not saying you're wrong or anything...I'm simply providing an arguement by providing a different point of view...trying to ...stimulate conversation and I hope that can be appreciated.

Structured enviroments...military situations...hostage situations...let's raise the bar...we're talking bout our lives not just work...so let's talk about siuations where lives are at steak.




No worries.  You stimulated conversation with me, and whether or not we agree, I appreciate the exchange of ideas.

Thanks for your clarity about structured environments.  And I think this is where we're coming at this differently.  I don't view my relationship with him in a military or hostage sense, nor do I feel my life is at stake.  However, I do trust him with my life, and I appreciate the way he has trained and developed me.  What works for me doesn't work for everyone, though, so I know there are different ways of doing things.

Thanks for the dialogue and clarity.  :)


(edited for spelling)



Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:14:46 AM)

I think I'll go and make cuffs instead, more useful.



ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:15:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Sound like me this is more an argumentive post than asking someones opinion.


I wasn't asking her opinion.  I was disagreeing with her.  [;)]



SubbieOnWheels -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:15:19 AM)

I believe any relationship I enter into will be a matter of negotiation and compromise. I believe I should be an equal partner in the relationship. He will give me something I need, and I will give him something he needs. If there's something he needs that I am adamant about not giving, then perhaps we are not right for one another. If there's something he needs that I am unwilling to give, there might be negotiation. Negotiation would lead to compromise - either I will give it, or he will forego it, or somewhere in between (I give it on infrequent occasions).

A relationship is so much more than the BDSM part of it, especially if it is to be a long-term relationship, and even more if it is to be live-in.

But then, I'm not a slave.



BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:24:16 AM)

Well there we go...my relationship isn't romantic...it really is 99% about the D/s and BDSM.

But seriously...back to my OP...

What's this look like?

What's dialouge like?

BTW I didn't mean in the "my life is at steak" danger ssense. I meant in the emotional investment and stability sense.



LadyHathor -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:33:50 AM)

Wow, I had to walk away more than a few times and think about this one from a realistic perspective--in the confines of the life I have built, there are simply things not open to negotiation or compromise--The structure of life, the main schedule, the expected interactions with UM, working part time and the fact that I like to inflict pain, discipline, flog, etc--not negotiable to do other wise is to shut off who I am and upset a family balance.
 
I don't negotiate on expectations, ask one who got sent home--you agree to these things, you understand what they are and what I expect--don't whine when its time and any emotional connection does not work to mitigate what needs to be accomplished.
 
There are things open to compromise-- where we go to dinner, so everyone has a chance at their favorite restaurant, dark blue shirt versus black, wash this afternoon versus this morning---but even in that at the end of the day I am the decision maker-so I guess that's a no compromise relationship?
 



joy2u -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:38:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Let's really talk about HOW to communicate and what communication looks like


For me, communication is much more about listening than it is about talking.  After all, we have 2 ears and 1 mouth.  So, to me, the ears are twice as important than the mouth, where communication is concerned, any way.
 
Also, i tend to ask questions and listen to the response more than just talking about what i think, feel, etc.
 
Repeating, in my own words what i heard the other person say and getting a confirmation that i heard and interpreted correctly what was said. 
 
Asking for clarification, if i didn't hear it right or if i misunderstood what was said or i have some uncertainty about what was said.
 
Communication is also more than verbal.  Body language can say a lot more than words.
 
And, finally, especially for me, being someone who is pretty emotional, remembering to not let my emotions take over and get in the way of effective communication.  Sometimes that means, keeping my mouth shut and waiting until later to speak.
 
Well, i think that about covers how i look at interpersonal communications. 
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David



Archer -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:51:46 AM)

What's funny is to watch the encode /decode filter mismatches in a post about communications happening go on for almost 2 pages. LOL.

I think a bit of communication 101 is needed before talking about negotiations and what they look like.

Before communication can happen you have to have some amount of a common language, and the mismtach between what person A means when they say "negotiation" and what person B thinks about when they hear negotiation has to be worked out.

First step may well need to be recognizing that each person has a different life experience and that that life experience has given them a unique set of connotations (infered meanings) that go along with the denotations (dictionary meanings). So you have to recognize that the communication model is more complex than just picking the words that make sense to you.
"What happens when what you hear is not what I said"?

I've seen alot of that exact thing happening so far in this post one person sees negotiation as compromise, while someone else sees it not having compromise. (And then there is the definition of compromise that has not been made clear either)

joy2u you on the other hand seem to have a decent grasp on what communication is about.



Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:54:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

What's funny is to watch the encode /decode filter mismatches in a post about communications happening go on for almost 2 pages. LOL.

I think a bit of communication 101 is needed before talking about negotiations and what they look like.

Before communication can happen you have to have some amount of a common language, and the mismtach between what person A means when they say "negotiation" and what person B thinks about when they hear negotiation has to be worked out.

First step may well need to be recognizing that each person has a different life experience and that that life experience has given them a unique set of connotations (infered meanings) that go along with the denotations (dictionary meanings). So you have to recognize that the communication model is more complex than just picking the words that make sense to you.
"What happens when what you hear is not what I said"?

I've seen alot of that exact thing happening so far in this post one person sees negotiation as compromise, while someone else sees it not having compromise. (And then there is the definition of compromise that has not been made clear either)




And this is why you really need something concrete to go on. And why terms are useless if you cannot nail them down.



BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:54:25 AM)

Exactly...so that's part of my point here...not very often do people talk about..."navigating" or finding an understanding even of the words we use.

What's the dialouge around that? What works for you? How does that transalte into working through the relationship stuff...and how much of that work through should actually be done before we start calling ourselves Owners and owned?



Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:56:08 AM)

Which is why I stated the base of knowing how you want to live your life. You need some sort of a foundation to build from. Goes back to check if the cuffs are ready to sew yet.



BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 10:59:56 AM)

Okay...so know yourself. We have step 1. I'm sure joy's post and comments on listening are gonna fit in on this somewhere.

So say in this perfect world we know what we want...really...how do we communicate that to a prospective partner in a way that they understand? How do we get them to talk about what they want...in the most real sense of "want"?

I guess what I'm saying is we've talked about the need to listen and to know ourselves and what certain words mean to us as individuals...we've even touched on that fact that even though we use the sme words they might not mean the same thing to somebody else. We haven't talked about tools to use to stimulate that conversation much less direct that conversation with a potential partner.



Archer -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 11:00:59 AM)

Classes on Active or Reflective listening can help until you get to know someone enough to make decent guesses at what they mean.  (That is what joy2u was talking about when she said listen and then repeat the understanding you have of what they just said, then they clarify and back and forth until you reach an actual understanding)

Another trap to avoid is formulating your answers/ replies before you have finished hearing what the person is saying.
That's a killer because multi tasking on that level is tough for even the best to do well.







BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 11:03:01 AM)

Or we get so caught up in needing to get our needs met that we stop listening. We start reacting.



Archer -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 11:05:18 AM)

Over time you reach more and more common language. I guess the best example to use for this would be imagine you're marooned on an island with someone who only speaks Manderin Chinese, and you only speak English. After awhile the odds are good that you two would develop a new pidgeon language comrised of the easiest phrasing and clearest communication phrases from each persons language.



ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 11:07:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Classes on Active or Reflective listening can help until you get to know someone enough to make decent guesses at what they mean.  (That is what joy2u was talking about when she said listen and then repeat the understanding you have of what they just said, then they clarify and back and forth until you reach an actual understanding)


I said that in my first post before the conversation sidetracked into compromise vs. negotiation:

"Listening and understanding.   People forget that part of the communication process."



BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 11:11:04 AM)

I'm not saying nobody said this yet...I'm saying I see it now.

Anyways what listening and understanding look like? I hear people all the time say "You're not listening to me!" because they didn't get their way. Is that really what we mean by "listening"?

Is understanding required? Do you really have to understand why your partner needs to have an organe instead of an apple every morning? Or can we simply accept it?



ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 11:14:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
Anyways what listening and understanding look like? I hear people all the time say "You're not listening to me!" because they didn't get their way. Is that really what we mean by "listening"?

That's what some mean.  That's not what I mean.  I listen so I can understand. 

quote:


Is understanding required? Do you really have to understand why your partner needs to have an organe instead of an apple every morning? Or can we simply accept it?


Depends on the circumstance.  My Master wants to understand why because he wants to know every degree of me that makes me tick.  He can more effectively master me if he knows my complete inner workings.

I, on the other hand, need only to know that he prefers an orange so I can give him an orange.  Telling me why allows me to know him better, and to whatever degree he wants me to know him is up to him.  If I understand that it's because he is allergic to apples, then I will know to always avoid offering him an apple, or even stocking them for him.



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