RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (Full Version)

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angelikaJ -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 2:39:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

How do you get the talking to stop when someone in the situation doesn't want to? I mean as people we can only take so much verbal attacking before we have the need to fight back again. And how do you establish that method of breakdown?

PS I have a method in my relationship...just interested in seeing what other people do.


Ideally, if people stick with this is how I feel, this is what I think....
how do you feel what do you think and work on understanding from there, it need not ever get to verbal attacks.

If it does get to that point then it is time to take a break, re-group.



BlackPhx -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 2:43:47 PM)

Take a break, have a snack, a cuddle, or attack a poor defenseless bread dough, then go back and try again relfecting back what you think you heard and listening for corrections.

poenkitten



MasterWilliam55 -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 3:00:49 PM)

Was it your birthday...Happy birthday to whomever.

By the way....I'm in shape and can only cover one subbie at a time.  Oh wait.....you didn't mean it in that way. Goes back, regroups and says thanks.



joy2u -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 3:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

How do you get the talking to stop when someone in the situation doesn't want to? I mean as people we can only take so much verbal attacking before we have the need to fight back again. And how do you establish that method of breakdown?

PS I have a method in my relationship...just interested in seeing what other people do.


As i see it, if the communication has broken down to the point where listening has stopped and one person is talking just to egg the other person on or to verbally attack the other person, then there's a good chance that it's not a communication problem.  Instead, there might very well be another, underlying, problem in the relationship that needs to be addressed and dealt with.  Or, if it can't be dealt with, then it might be better to just go your separate ways, before it get's to the point that you feel the need to fight back.
 
Another thing about communication is that it's not just what is being said.  It's also how it's being said.
 
Example:  "You're just like your father!"  That statement can either be a compliment or an insult, depending on how it's said.  This very statement was made by my maternal grandfather to my 15 year old brother.  It could have been a wonderful statement of pride but, my mother's father hated my father and he said it to my brother with a great deal of venom in his voice and meant it to be an insult. 
 
Knowing when to keep quiet and let things go and just walk away, rather than escalate the situation by engaging in a verbal war, was something my brother and i learned at an early age, in our family, and so he swallowed his pride and quietly walked away, after my grandfather's verbal assault on him and our father.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David



LPslittleclip -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 4:59:17 PM)

in marriage counseling one effective tool is reflecting. this is where the speaker gives a message and the listener waits for a moment and then restates the received message, then the original sender waits and then responds until the same message that is sent is received and resent and understood by the original sender. the same can work in written form if this isn't working. one of the most essential keys in any relationship (work, love, life etc) is not just communication but effective communication. its not necessary to agree but understand.
Proudly collared by LadyPact



Elegant -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 10:05:31 AM)

Instead of expounding more about the definition of communication, how to communicate, the importance of communication etc etc I offer this:



The Characteristics Of Bad Communication
1. Truth -- You insist that you are "right" and the other person is "wrong".
2. Blame -- You say that the problem is the other person's fault.
3. Martydom -- You claim that you're an innocent victim.
4. Put-down -- You imply that the other person is a loser because he or she "always" or "never" does certain things.
5. Hopelessness -- You give up and insist there's no point in trying.
6. Demandingness -- You say you're entitled to better treatment but you refuse to ask for what you want in a direct, straightforward way.
7. Denial -- You insist that you don't feel angry, hurt, or sad when you really do.
8. Passive Aggression -- You pout or withdraw or say nothing. Or you may storm out of the room or slam doors.
9. Self-blame -- Instead of dealing with the problem, you act as if you're an awful, terrible person.
10. Helping -- Instead of hearing how depressed, hurt, or angry the other person feels, you try to "solve the problem" or "help" him or her.
11. Sarcasm -- Your words or tone of voice convey tension or hostility which you aren't openly acknowledging.
12. Scapegoating -- You suggest that the other person has "a problem" and that you're sane, happy, and uninvolved in the conflict.
13. Defensiveness -- You refuse to admit any wrong-doing or imperfection.
14. Counterattack -- Instead of acknowledging how the other person feels, you respond to their criticism by critizing them.
15. Diversion -- Instead of dealing with how you both feel in the here-and-now, you list grievances about past injustices.  



Owner4SexSlave -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 10:18:38 AM)

Communication....

Share your honest thoughts, feelings, wants, needs and desires with each other. 

Be prepared to not only talk, but also be prepared to listen, try to comprehend and understand, be prepared to make any adjustments for the better.

If something is a hard limit, express it as being a hard limit or a limit that you have issues with.   Change does not happen overnight, be patient.   Be patient while listening as well.

Sure DOMs are guilty in avoiding communication by pulling out their MASTERCARD.   Some sub/slaves does the same thing by pulling out their Slave Card Status.    D/s or M/s does not mean people should shut up or bark orders.  Communication goes a long way.   Just be respectful adults about it.




SailingBum -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 10:20:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

How do D-types balance their D-typedness with meeting and mainting the needs of the s-type? How do s-types maintian their own boundaries with out manipulationg the situation?

Let's really talk about HOW to communicate and what communication looks like


Blah blah blah  Get the picture  That's HOW it works!  Some of you act like this is a art form.  It's been around since the man grabbed her by the hair into the cave.  SHEESH

BadOne



DesFIP -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 10:45:43 AM)

I don't consider me saying "I can't do that. It's going to cause my vertigo to act up." to be equal to me taking control.

More importantly, he insists on me saying these things. The fact that he demands I tell him stops it being me taking control, and turns it into me doing what I was told.

And that's the bottom line. If the top has been clear about needing to be told when they are in danger of doing something damaging, then it isn't tftb. If the top doesn't want to know these things, would prefer to accidentally damage the sub instead of finding out ahead, then I would consider that a red flag.

As far as him saying that I wasn't yet the person he needed but he hoped I would be? I would have told him not to hold his breath. Either I fulfilled enough of his needs on day one, that he could get by without the few extra ones, or I didn't. I don't believe in going into a relationship hoping to change the other person.



SirJohnMandevill -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 4:34:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

How many times have we gone to a BDSM 101 andheard about how important communication and negotiation are? How often does anyone actually talk about HOW to do those things?

So lets do the actually talk...we all know it's important...but how do you actually communicate your needs and negotiate the understanding of your boundaires? Especially given that D/s relationships are about someone having more control than the other..

How do D-types balance their D-typedness with meeting and mainting the needs of the s-type? How do s-types maintian their own boundaries with out manipulationg the situation?

Let's really talk about HOW to communicate and what communication looks like


Let me describe what I did when the submissive I'm currently courting and I met in person for the first time a few weeks ago. You can judge the importance of communication.
 
She had never experienced a flogging or hard spanking. I showed her the rope flogger -- sensual and thuddy rather than stinging -- and talked her through things as I used it the first time. I made sure to stop after every few blows to ask how she was feeling and to gently touch her skin, stroke her hair and otherwise maintain contact. I also learned very quickly that she could not -- at least, for now -- take the pain of a leather belt. By Sunday, we were able to go through a very long, intense flogging and hand spanking scene with both of us playing our respective roles to perfection and both of us getting ultimate satisfaction.
 
I got everything I would have ever wanted or needed with her...and she with me. I really feel taking things slowly...free-form...step-by-step...really made the weekend for both of us.
 
Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)



LATEXBABY64 -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 8:48:55 PM)

oh this is easy goes back to basic dating rights  YOU HAVE NONE  lol self entittlement is like majority of the doms and dommes and subs problems  i have a need me me me  NOT
I think first off its we thing not a we thing soon as most get that through there rock like head life will rule for them but oh well what ever

If you can not tie your shoes you never walk correctly in them



IrishMist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 8:51:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Instead of expounding more about the definition of communication, how to communicate, the importance of communication etc etc I offer this:



The Characteristics Of Bad Communication
1. Truth -- You insist that you are "right" and the other person is "wrong".
2. Blame -- You say that the problem is the other person's fault.
3. Martydom -- You claim that you're an innocent victim.
4. Put-down -- You imply that the other person is a loser because he or she "always" or "never" does certain things.
5. Hopelessness -- You give up and insist there's no point in trying.
6. Demandingness -- You say you're entitled to better treatment but you refuse to ask for what you want in a direct, straightforward way.
7. Denial -- You insist that you don't feel angry, hurt, or sad when you really do.
8. Passive Aggression -- You pout or withdraw or say nothing. Or you may storm out of the room or slam doors.
9. Self-blame -- Instead of dealing with the problem, you act as if you're an awful, terrible person.
10. Helping -- Instead of hearing how depressed, hurt, or angry the other person feels, you try to "solve the problem" or "help" him or her.
11. Sarcasm -- Your words or tone of voice convey tension or hostility which you aren't openly acknowledging.
12. Scapegoating -- You suggest that the other person has "a problem" and that you're sane, happy, and uninvolved in the conflict.
13. Defensiveness -- You refuse to admit any wrong-doing or imperfection.
14. Counterattack -- Instead of acknowledging how the other person feels, you respond to their criticism by critizing them.
15. Diversion -- Instead of dealing with how you both feel in the here-and-now, you list grievances about past injustices.  

I like this; it is so on the money that it's uncanny.



ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/29/2008 9:23:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I don't consider me saying "I can't do that. It's going to cause my vertigo to act up." to be equal to me taking control.

More importantly, he insists on me saying these things. The fact that he demands I tell him stops it being me taking control, and turns it into me doing what I was told.

And that's the bottom line. If the top has been clear about needing to be told when they are in danger of doing something damaging, then it isn't tftb. If the top doesn't want to know these things, would prefer to accidentally damage the sub instead of finding out ahead, then I would consider that a red flag.


Well there you go.  You have a different set of expectations than I do.  If I were to tell him No, I can't about something, then I would be disobeying.  He knows me well enough to know what I can and can't do.  So often I thought I couldn't do something when really I could.  Had he not helped me see that, I would still be stunted.

quote:


As far as him saying that I wasn't yet the person he needed but he hoped I would be? I would have told him not to hold his breath. Either I fulfilled enough of his needs on day one, that he could get by without the few extra ones, or I didn't. I don't believe in going into a relationship hoping to change the other person.


Again we come at this from different angles.  First, he was impressed enough when we met to bring me into his world.  He didn't want to "change" me, he brought out my best.  Big difference.  I welcomed it, as I want to always improve upon myself and he inspired (and demanded) me to do so.



Justme696 -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 1:22:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Instead of expounding more about the definition of communication, how to communicate, the importance of communication etc etc I offer this:



The Characteristics Of Bad Communication
1. Truth -- You insist that you are "right" and the other person is "wrong".
2. Blame -- You say that the problem is the other person's fault.
3. Martydom -- You claim that you're an innocent victim.
4. Put-down -- You imply that the other person is a loser because he or she "always" or "never" does certain things.
5. Hopelessness -- You give up and insist there's no point in trying.
6. Demandingness -- You say you're entitled to better treatment but you refuse to ask for what you want in a direct, straightforward way.
7. Denial -- You insist that you don't feel angry, hurt, or sad when you really do.
8. Passive Aggression -- You pout or withdraw or say nothing. Or you may storm out of the room or slam doors.
9. Self-blame -- Instead of dealing with the problem, you act as if you're an awful, terrible person.
10. Helping -- Instead of hearing how depressed, hurt, or angry the other person feels, you try to "solve the problem" or "help" him or her.
11. Sarcasm -- Your words or tone of voice convey tension or hostility which you aren't openly acknowledging.
12. Scapegoating -- You suggest that the other person has "a problem" and that you're sane, happy, and uninvolved in the conflict.
13. Defensiveness -- You refuse to admit any wrong-doing or imperfection.
14. Counterattack -- Instead of acknowledging how the other person feels, you respond to their criticism by critizing them.
15. Diversion -- Instead of dealing with how you both feel in the here-and-now, you list grievances about past injustices.  

I like this; it is so on the money that it's uncanny.


yes, but now we want to have a list of the good :P



RCdc -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 2:23:56 AM)

.yup.yup.yup.
Pretty much as usual from a relationship POV, I pretty much echo OG's comments.
 
the.dark.



CNJDom -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 3:05:18 AM)

I know for myself, I truly enjoy talking about how a scene went or something in particular after we've done something...anything really.  Sometimes it will just be as simple as a look or touch or how a word or sound was made that conveys to me what is going on at the time.   Afterwards, we'll talk at some point.  I know it sounds on the surface that the communication is happening later, but we've been communicating the whole time.  We sometimes will discuss or one of us will at least (like myself onwhat's going to happen in scene)...but even before that, we'll be discussing how our respective days went, what's on our minds, and how we are generally prior to any play.  This communication is essential to not only setting the mood, but reassuring that we care, and will be making any time together more meaningful.  This may include no play for a while due to what is being discussed and how one or both of us are feeling either physically or emotionally, and at that point one is nurturing the other through respect and caring.  When the actual play gets underway, then that time isn't distracted or diminished by other outside factors.  That in itself, is what I feel is healthy and quality time and communication.  



Paulsgirl -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 3:26:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

How many times have we gone to a BDSM 101 andheard about how important communication and negotiation are? How often does anyone actually talk about HOW to do those things?

So lets do the actually talk...we all know it's important...but how do you actually communicate your needs and negotiate the understanding of your boundaires? Especially given that D/s relationships are about someone having more control than the other..

How do D-types balance their D-typedness with meeting and mainting the needs of the s-type? How do s-types maintian their own boundaries with out manipulationg the situation?

Let's really talk about HOW to communicate and what communication looks like

This is a good question.
i must admit my communication is really fraught at the moment but this gas been going on for some time.
i don't communicate as much as react. i go into upset and co-dependency and endlessly try to dismiss myself when i feel i am not needed and not wanted.
This most definitely stems from a very deep belief that doesn't always surface: that i am unworthy.
When it does surface it colours everything i do including my abilities to serve.
Damn it. i must drive Him crazy. i will push and push and push until that point when i know it is topping Him and then i don't get punished (oh no as He knows i love that) i simply get ignored. Which in turn proves that i am unworthy.
Damn it.
Recursion.
Round and round i go.
Damn that.
i certainly know that's not the way to communicate but it's how i feel if i haven't had enough pain, sex, contact, intimacy.
i'll get back to this thread when i get off the roundabout.



CNJDom -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 3:52:23 AM)

I recently posted in a journal entry on "non-verbal communication", and this may not seem totally on-topic (I haven't read all 5 pages of entries yet), but we do communicate constantly with more than just our vocal capacity.  How a person feels is sometimes conveyed with a LOT more of what the body is saying that the words could do justice with.  We as creatures of observation and reaction will sometimes read people, and make a judgement call on their disposition due to not only the body language, but also through a complicated cataloge of memories of sounds, movements, and looks that we've individually encountered in our lives by countless others we've come in contact with.  There is a part in a movie that I really enjoy where this lady is speaking in a dismissive and condescending manner that so totally reminds of my first step-mother, that I immediately have this reaction of displeasure that I just can't shake towards this character.  We are not generalizing people when we come to situations like this, but we are reacting from our past experiences.  This is communication, but in this context it may be miscommunication if you react and interact with that person in a manner consistent with the original memory of a totally different person.  That's just a knee-jerk thing, and is never pretty...

As BDSMers, we utililze any and all forms of communication when with or around others.  We make statements with clothes, hairstyle, posture, looks, eye-contact, and more.  Yes, we do that in the vanilla world as well!  When we talk, mumble, whisper, or yell...it's not only the words but HOW we say those words as well that add dimension to what we are trying to communicate.  We send messages constantly:  "stay away", "come closer", "I'm d-e-m-e-n-t-e-d...." are just a few things that may come across in just a few words and a little body language.  Hopefully we read those messages quickly!  Due to our lifestyle and our duality with the "norm" of popular thought comparatively to morals and such, we tend to be bi-lingual in certain forms of communication:  vanilla and lifestyle.  But anyway, I thought I'd add this into the mix of discussion.



Justme696 -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 3:54:41 AM)

I agree..non verbal is very important...but also the dangerous one. It can be interpreted much eassier the  wrong way.
On the other side..it can provide extra info on what is said.



eyesopened -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 4:26:33 AM)

i see communication from its root meaning. 

[Middle English comunen, to have common dealings with, converse, from Old French communer, to make common, share (from commun, common; see common) and perhaps from Old French communier, to share in the Communion (from Late Latin comm[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/umacr.gif[/image]nic[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gif[/image]re)

i see communication as sharing, which means i first have to learn what commonalities i have with the other party.  Part of communication is to be aware of the other person and have a desire to understand.  Communication isn't just talking, and it isn't just listening, it isn't negotiation, it isn't compromise, it is sharing.  Sharing isn't one-sided.  Sharing isn't surrender.  Commnication is shared understanding.  Bees communicate through dance and whales communicate through song.  Human beings have a large variety of communication means and methods but i believe it begins with the desire to be understood and the desire to understand.



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