RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (Full Version)

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Elegant -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 9:41:55 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Instead of expounding more about the definition of communication, how to communicate, the importance of communication etc etc I offer this:



The Characteristics Of Bad Communication
1. Truth -- You insist that you are "right" and the other person is "wrong".
2. Blame -- You say that the problem is the other person's fault.
3. Martydom -- You claim that you're an innocent victim.
4. Put-down -- You imply that the other person is a loser because he or she "always" or "never" does certain things.
5. Hopelessness -- You give up and insist there's no point in trying.
6. Demandingness -- You say you're entitled to better treatment but you refuse to ask for what you want in a direct, straightforward way.
7. Denial -- You insist that you don't feel angry, hurt, or sad when you really do.
8. Passive Aggression -- You pout or withdraw or say nothing. Or you may storm out of the room or slam doors.
9. Self-blame -- Instead of dealing with the problem, you act as if you're an awful, terrible person.
10. Helping -- Instead of hearing how depressed, hurt, or angry the other person feels, you try to "solve the problem" or "help" him or her.
11. Sarcasm -- Your words or tone of voice convey tension or hostility which you aren't openly acknowledging.
12. Scapegoating -- You suggest that the other person has "a problem" and that you're sane, happy, and uninvolved in the conflict.
13. Defensiveness -- You refuse to admit any wrong-doing or imperfection.
14. Counterattack -- Instead of acknowledging how the other person feels, you respond to their criticism by critizing them.
15. Diversion -- Instead of dealing with how you both feel in the here-and-now, you list grievances about past injustices.  


quote:



yes, but now we want to have a list of the good :P



Reverse the ideas,...grin...I list the bad because so many people can relate to the negative better than they can relate to the positive.





CreativeDominant -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 12:42:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant



quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Instead of expounding more about the definition of communication, how to communicate, the importance of communication etc etc I offer this:

The Characteristics Of Bad Communication
1. Truth -- You insist that you are "right" and the other person is "wrong".
2. Blame -- You say that the problem is the other person's fault.
3. Martydom -- You claim that you're an innocent victim.
4. Put-down -- You imply that the other person is a loser because he or she "always" or "never" does certain things.
5. Hopelessness -- You give up and insist there's no point in trying.
6. Demandingness -- You say you're entitled to better treatment but you refuse to ask for what you want in a direct, straightforward way.
7. Denial -- You insist that you don't feel angry, hurt, or sad when you really do.
8. Passive Aggression -- You pout or withdraw or say nothing. Or you may storm out of the room or slam doors.
9. Self-blame -- Instead of dealing with the problem, you act as if you're an awful, terrible person.
10. Helping -- Instead of hearing how depressed, hurt, or angry the other person feels, you try to "solve the problem" or "help" him or her.
11. Sarcasm -- Your words or tone of voice convey tension or hostility which you aren't openly acknowledging.
12. Scapegoating -- You suggest that the other person has "a problem" and that you're sane, happy, and uninvolved in the conflict.
13. Defensiveness -- You refuse to admit any wrong-doing or imperfection.
14. Counterattack -- Instead of acknowledging how the other person feels, you respond to their criticism by critizing them.
15. Diversion -- Instead of dealing with how you both feel in the here-and-now, you list grievances about past injustices.  


quote:



yes, but now we want to have a list of the good :P



Reverse the ideas,...grin...I list the bad because so many people can relate to the negative better than they can relate to the positive.



I love your list.  And find myself saddened by the truth of your last statement.




MadameTakhisis -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 1:11:14 PM)

Good question. After a couple of munches the result is Master Lens Training Day ( http://MasterLen.net/ ) tomorrow at Vegasvoyeurhouse.com.( http://VegasVoyeurHouse.com/ ) .So many questions from seeing the wrong procedures and technique that we had no choice but to  focus on protocol. So tomorrow the first topic is negotiation. Master Len has instilled in us without negotiation we have no direction. Communication is definitely the key to one's intent and can reveal what's necessary for negotiation within the first ten minutes of speaking if practiced properly whether both parties are telling the truth or not. My Hubby (Sir Jinn) has become very apt in both verbal and physical communication that I have watched him grow this technique to where his responses would seem almost clairvoyant. It spooky sometimes but entertaining how few words and actions reveal a script of who's in front of us. There's a few good books on how to read a person like a book, one of which is actually titled 'How to read a person like a book' , I believe you can google it. After Sunday I believe we will have more information to add on the subject, but this is definitely one topic that needs to be permanently  posted once methods and techniques have been nailed down.




SubbieOnWheels -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 1:31:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant
Reverse the ideas,...grin...I list the bad because so many people can relate to the negative better than they can relate to the positive.

So sad ... and yet so true.




Justme696 -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 3:18:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant
Reverse the ideas,...grin...I list the bad because so many people can relate to the negative better than they can relate to the positive.

So sad ... and yet so true.


agree....
I think we all know the negative things...but it is better to show people what can be reached..if it is done well.






joy2u -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 7:23:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

I think we all know the negative things...but it is better to show people what can be reached..if it is done well.


Okay, so here are some ideas for more effective communication:
 
1) Stay in the present.  Don't bring up past grievances.  The past is over, leave it behind.
 
2) Make time to talk.  You both deserve sufficient time to say what you need to say and not feel rushed.  This might mean scheduling a time to sit down and talk, without any distractions, no TV, no phone, no one else around.
 
3) Speak in "I" statements, rather than "You" statements.  Example: "I would really like for us to spend more time together." instead of, "You never have any time for me."  And, "I felt really hurt when you didn't call me." instead of, "You don't care about me.  You didn't even bother to call."
 
4) Let the other person finish speaking their complete thought before reaching a conclusion about what they are saying.  Don't just jump to conclusions or make assumptions about what they are 'going to say'. 
 
5) Be an attentive listener.  Don't just sit there, pretending to listen, while your mind wanders or is busy thinking about what you are going to say.  Focus your attention on what they are telling you and LISTEN to what they are saying.
 
6) Acknowledge what the other person said.  Let them know that you heard them.  You can say something like, "I understand that you want to spend more time with me."  And, "I understand that you are upset that I didn't call."
 
7) Ask questions.  Example:  "Would you like for us to stay in and be alone more often or go out and do things together more?"  "Would you like me to call you, even if it's very late?"
 
8) Watch your emotions and, if they are getting in the way of effective communication, don't hesitate to ask for a "time out" to cool-off or get your thoughts together. 
 
9) Not all communication is verbal.  A lot of information is given through our posture and gestures, our tone of voice, and the expression on our face.  Often the non-verbal communication is what gets heard and believed, over the verbal.  Not speaking can be a way of saying, "I'm really angry."
 
10) Strive for mutual understanding, not necessarily agreement.  The aim of communication should be about getting your message heard and about hearing what the other person has to say, not about being "Right" or proving the other person "wrong".  You don't have to agree, in order to understand.
 
Well, hopefully, these ideas are somewhat positive and helpful.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David




SubbieOnWheels -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/1/2008 8:09:05 PM)

Manual J. Smith, Ph.D.,  wrote a book many years ago called When I Say No I Feel Guilty.  Most of what Joy put in her excellent post is in that book.

Stephen R. Covey said, "Seek rather to understand than to be understood."




CreativeDominant -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/3/2008 7:47:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

I think we all know the negative things...but it is better to show people what can be reached..if it is done well.


Okay, so here are some ideas for more effective communication:
 
1) Stay in the present.  Don't bring up past grievances.  The past is over, leave it behind.
 
2) Make time to talk.  You both deserve sufficient time to say what you need to say and not feel rushed.  This might mean scheduling a time to sit down and talk, without any distractions, no TV, no phone, no one else around.
 
3) Speak in "I" statements, rather than "You" statements.  Example: "I would really like for us to spend more time together." instead of, "You never have any time for me."  And, "I felt really hurt when you didn't call me." instead of, "You don't care about me.  You didn't even bother to call."
 
4) Let the other person finish speaking their complete thought before reaching a conclusion about what they are saying.  Don't just jump to conclusions or make assumptions about what they are 'going to say'. 
 
5) Be an attentive listener.  Don't just sit there, pretending to listen, while your mind wanders or is busy thinking about what you are going to say.  Focus your attention on what they are telling you and LISTEN to what they are saying.
 
6) Acknowledge what the other person said.  Let them know that you heard them.  You can say something like, "I understand that you want to spend more time with me."  And, "I understand that you are upset that I didn't call."
 
7) Ask questions.  Example:  "Would you like for us to stay in and be alone more often or go out and do things together more?"  "Would you like me to call you, even if it's very late?"
 
8) Watch your emotions and, if they are getting in the way of effective communication, don't hesitate to ask for a "time out" to cool-off or get your thoughts together. 
 
9) Not all communication is verbal.  A lot of information is given through our posture and gestures, our tone of voice, and the expression on our face.  Often the non-verbal communication is what gets heard and believed, over the verbal.  Not speaking can be a way of saying, "I'm really angry."
 
10) Strive for mutual understanding, not necessarily agreement.  The aim of communication should be about getting your message heard and about hearing what the other person has to say, not about being "Right" or proving the other person "wrong".  You don't have to agree, in order to understand.
 
Well, hopefully, these ideas are somewhat positive and helpful.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David


Excellent list, joy.  I personally think that # 3 and # 4 is where many people screw up, although # 5 is important to, especially if you are trying very hard to follow through on using "I" statements instead of "you" statements and it seems as if your partner is only hearing what THEY've done wrong.  When you are using "I" statements and all the other person hears is you saying they are wrong, then they are the ones whose want of being heard and being the wronged on is more important than the dynamics of the relationship and the solution to the problem...they are being part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.




Justme696 -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/3/2008 8:03:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

I think we all know the negative things...but it is better to show people what can be reached..if it is done well.


Okay, so here are some ideas for more effective communication:
 
1) Stay in the present.  Don't bring up past grievances.  The past is over, leave it behind.
 
2) Make time to talk.  You both deserve sufficient time to say what you need to say and not feel rushed.  This might mean scheduling a time to sit down and talk, without any distractions, no TV, no phone, no one else around.
 
3) Speak in "I" statements, rather than "You" statements.  Example: "I would really like for us to spend more time together." instead of, "You never have any time for me."  And, "I felt really hurt when you didn't call me." instead of, "You don't care about me.  You didn't even bother to call."
 
4) Let the other person finish speaking their complete thought before reaching a conclusion about what they are saying.  Don't just jump to conclusions or make assumptions about what they are 'going to say'. 
 
5) Be an attentive listener.  Don't just sit there, pretending to listen, while your mind wanders or is busy thinking about what you are going to say.  Focus your attention on what they are telling you and LISTEN to what they are saying.
 
6) Acknowledge what the other person said.  Let them know that you heard them.  You can say something like, "I understand that you want to spend more time with me."  And, "I understand that you are upset that I didn't call."
 
7) Ask questions.  Example:  "Would you like for us to stay in and be alone more often or go out and do things together more?"  "Would you like me to call you, even if it's very late?"
 
8) Watch your emotions and, if they are getting in the way of effective communication, don't hesitate to ask for a "time out" to cool-off or get your thoughts together. 
 
9) Not all communication is verbal.  A lot of information is given through our posture and gestures, our tone of voice, and the expression on our face.  Often the non-verbal communication is what gets heard and believed, over the verbal.  Not speaking can be a way of saying, "I'm really angry."
 
10) Strive for mutual understanding, not necessarily agreement.  The aim of communication should be about getting your message heard and about hearing what the other person has to say, not about being "Right" or proving the other person "wrong".  You don't have to agree, in order to understand.
 
Well, hopefully, these ideas are somewhat positive and helpful.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David


Thank you very much :D

interesting




HerLord -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/3/2008 8:26:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2u
...
3) Speak in "I" statements, rather than "You" statements.  Example: "I would really like for us to spend more time together." instead of, "You never have any time for me."  And, "I felt really hurt when you didn't call me." instead of, "You don't care about me.  You didn't even bother to call."
 joy
Owned servant of Master David
...

This is one that I have found tiresome. I will explain. I find it very boring to listen to someone tell me all about them without checking to see if I am still on board. By using I statements all the time, I tend to bore people away by not including them in the conversation, and who really gives a shit about me any way? (no this is not a self esteem issue, or cry for help)

Point being... I statements are great when trying to convey an issue that needs addressing, however, outside of the context of this thread and in general, away from the resolution of problems, I statements are often put offs.

Has any one any suggestions for how to improve this? Or... something. How does one define the line between I statements and inclusion?




joy2u -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/3/2008 8:30:13 AM)

Glad you liked the list.  It's true that communication is a 2-way street.  One person has to be willing and able to listen, in order for communication to take place.  And, like you said, a lot of times what's said, even when it's in the form of "I" statements, gets translated by the other person into "blame" statements.  Learning how to listen is a lot harder than learning how to talk.  No one said communicating was easy.  But, if both people are willing to hear what the other has to say, it might be a little less difficult.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David




joy2u -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (3/3/2008 8:33:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerLord

Point being... I statements are great when trying to convey an issue that needs addressing, however, outside of the context of this thread and in general, away from the resolution of problems, I statements are often put offs.

Has any one any suggestions for how to improve this? Or... something. How does one define the line between I statements and inclusion?


For that, i like:
7) Ask questions.  Example:  "Would you like for us to stay in and be alone more often or go out and do things together more?"  "Would you like me to call you, even if it's very late?"

joy
Owned servant of Master David




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