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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 9:12:33 AM

kittinSol

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I beg your pardon?

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 9:27:27 AM

thompsonx

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Smith said:
Firstly, marines are taught from day one they are killers, terminators, the 'bad asses' of the world. They don't question orders, they don't think for themselves, they are taught to do the mission and that's it.

Smith:
It is clear to me that you were never a marine. While marines are extremely well trained and well disciplined they are inculcated with the concept of individual initiative. It is the combination of training,discipline and individual initiative that makes them the most effective warriors in this country. It is also what allows for the two extremes of character portrayed in the movie "A Few Good Men". There will always be "the good the bad and the ugly" that is the very nature of the Marine Corps.
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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 9:38:36 AM

joanus

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Well this is what you get recuriting the bottom 10% of americans (not that the other 90% are better)
I've seen this video various times before and just for those of you who deffend the US troops actions with the excuse of its War they do what they have to. BULLSHIT! This degenerate asshole was simply being stupid. I serously doubt that that puppy was a terrorist, I'm a cold heartless bastard but that was totally uncalled for.

And don't give me that you-don't-know-what-its-like crap, I've been to North Africa and trust me its a lot worst there, an I have as yet to throw a puppy off a cliff.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 9:49:39 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Give me a fucking break. Saying that one Marine that does this, represents them all is ludicrous. I know a few Marines that would beat that one's ass if they saw that. There are horrible people in the world, humans are pretty horrible. If anything that is a representation of how horrible humans can be. How many humans do you know?

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

What have we become?

k

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 10:13:43 AM

kittinSol

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You completely misunderstood my point. It's obvious this man has the workings of a psychopath.

War does turn human beings into beasts, however - an easy enough observation to make, I think you'll agree. It unleashes the basest in some people's nature. Away from the normal confines of society, and faced with the daily horrors of war, they tune into their most debased "instincts" and loose the chains that civilisation imposed upon them. Like in the video we saw.

Obviously, I have no ways of knowing whether this bastard would have done the same thing away from the conflict situation he was in

.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 12:36:30 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

Your second post proves my point.

I'm still waiting for an answer on if you've ever been in a warzone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

Wars do not create these people; these people create wars, and then they train others to be just like them.

When you've been in a combat situation as fucked up as some of our troops have in this war, I will give your statement validity. Until then, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Post #: 126

RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 12:44:49 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Actually, that's not it. Beginning in boot camp, Marines are trained not only to follow orders and accomplish the mission, but what it means to conduct oneself as a United States Marine. This includes training in the Marines' Code of Conduct, Article VI of which reads as follows:

quote:

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Describing Marines as "killers" and "terminators" who "don't think for themselves" is outrageously and offensively inaccurate.

Well, celticlord....nice to see the marines' lil 'quote.' But a motto is not part of daily training. My service had its little motto too. But half the time when asked after basic training, most of us would have forgotten the words without help. Sure those lil sayings are nice to put on posters and draw in recruits, but it's by no means the law of the marines. And it does not change the fact that the marines want killing machines in its ranks. I've met *one* marine that I've ever respected on an individual level, and that's my brother. He'd had enough of the bullshit after 4 years and got out. He still seems like the brother I grew up with for the most part, unlike my dad who's a total, abusive asshole, my friend's husband who's already hit her TWICE for nothing, once with their son in the room watching.

Every book-turned-movie written by someone who went through it, details how the marines change people. How they want killers and obedient machines and nothing else. Think I'm wrong? Tell me what happens if a platoon of marines start asking questions instead of following their sergeant's orders to take a hill in a firefight. They are trained to follow orders, not think. Not ask questions. They follow orders or they go the hell home.

So my description is offensively inaccurate, hmmm? Well when I meet one marine besides my brother who supports your position, I might change my tune. However, having been literally around this world in various places...having literrally met lots of them myself....I can say so far my assessment is pretty accurate. I only call 'em like I see 'em.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 12:47:34 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Smith:
It is clear to me that you were never a marine. While marines are extremely well trained and well disciplined they are inculcated with the concept of individual initiative. It is the combination of training,discipline and individual initiative that makes them the most effective warriors in this country. It is also what allows for the two extremes of character portrayed in the movie "A Few Good Men". There will always be "the good the bad and the ugly" that is the very nature of the Marine Corps.
thompson

Nope. Thankfully, I was never a marine. Unfortunately, however, I've had more than my share of personal experience with them to be able to form my own point of view on them. I continue to wait for one to prove me wrong, but it hasn't happened yet.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 1:07:36 PM

joanus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You completely misunderstood my point. It's obvious this man has the workings of a psychopath.

War does turn human beings into beasts, however - an easy enough observation to make, I think you'll agree. It unleashes the basest in some people's nature. Away from the normal confines of society, and faced with the daily horrors of war, they tune into their most debased "instincts" and loose the chains that civilisation imposed upon them. Like in the video we saw.

Obviously, I have no ways of knowing whether this bastard would have done the same thing away from the conflict situation he was in .

So just because I have been in a WarZone I have the right to do anything I fucking want? Awsome Im gonna go eat some babies, while deficating on a burning america flag.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 2:53:45 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Smith:
It is clear to me that you were never a marine. While marines are extremely well trained and well disciplined they are inculcated with the concept of individual initiative. It is the combination of training,discipline and individual initiative that makes them the most effective warriors in this country. It is also what allows for the two extremes of character portrayed in the movie "A Few Good Men". There will always be "the good the bad and the ugly" that is the very nature of the Marine Corps.
thompson

Nope. Thankfully, I was never a marine.
I am sure the Marine Corps agrees with you.

Unfortunately, however, I've had more than my share of personal experience with them to be able to form my own point of view on them.
I am sure the Marine Corps is sorry that your encounters have been less than pleasant.

I continue to wait for one to prove me wrong, but it hasn't happened yet.
I realize that my reference to a work of fiction(A Few Good Men) is not absolute refutation of your position it was meant to show the range of personalities in the Marine Corps.
For non fiction I would recommend "Old Gimlet Eye" by Lowell Thomas,"War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler Gen.USMC,MOH,"Chesty"by Jon Hoffman.
You must keep in mind that the Marine Corps has a different mission than the constitutionally authorized military of the U.S.
It is because of this difference in mission that we see the dramatic range of differences in the behavior of many marines.
As Gen. Butler points out in his book "We spend four years teaching a man how to act in a fashion contrary to how he was raised and not ten minutes counseling him how to act once he leaves the service."
Whether you start out as a thug or a choir boy, after you have been taught how to be the most effective thug on the block,returning to civilian life is difficult for many and impossible for some.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/6/2008 3:01:39 PM >

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 4:41:59 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

You are right on the money, Zensee. Serial killers start off with torturing and killing animals and work their way up the food chain to other humans.

Whether this video was faked for grotesque entertainment or
in fact depicts a horrible act of animal cruelty, I am completely
disgusted by what was shown.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Actually, Invictus, serial killers, as children, generally cut their teeth torturing animals to death. It's a symptom of severe mental illness, not some sort of by product of being in a war. People like him will soon be coming home to live amongst you and while you might be comfortable having a psychopath for a buddy, many sane people would not.

Z.

Which would make the appropriate title for this thread, 'Psychopath tarnishes image of Corps'...

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 4:59:43 PM

charmdpetKeira

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Give me a fucking break. Saying that one Marine that does this, represents them all is ludicrous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

What have we become?

k

I would agree, too bad I didn't say that.

k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 3/6/2008 5:01:28 PM >

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:05:22 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

Every book-turned-movie written by someone who went through it, details how the marines change people. How they want killers and obedient machines and nothing else. Think I'm wrong? Tell me what happens if a platoon of marines start asking questions instead of following their sergeant's orders to take a hill in a firefight. They are trained to follow orders, not think. Not ask questions. They follow orders or they go the hell home.

Couple of points....that the Marines or any other branch of the military wants people who follow orders, even unpleasant ones, when there isn't time to sit around chit-chatting about philosopical issues, is a given.
But it is a far cry from training for unit cohesion and overcoming the innate human reluctance to kill, to being a puppy killing psycho.

So the conflation of the two into smearing an entire branch with the label of being unthinking homicidal maniacs deserves no more credence than any other such blanket over simplification.

Second point... because so many people get their information about the military from the same movies as you, the USMC attracts a lot of young people with compensation issues. Typically, if they stick around and don't do something really stupid, they are given a chance to grow out of it...not all of them do.

And anyone who has actually served recently should be aware that for the last few decades, the USMC has made a very determined effort to avoid the bloat of other branches.
It has taken a lot of effective steps to remain a smaller, more efficient force by training to use individualism for the good of the group, and by promoting and retaining those who show evidence of being good at that.... just like many non-military organizations (which no doubt have their share of puppy killing psychos too).

The Big Muddy was your grandfather's Corps.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 3/6/2008 5:07:41 PM >

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:09:45 PM

MrDom

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Being one who loves dogs for their unconditional love and devotion I am greatly upset by this video. Knowing puppies held by the scruff of the neck like in the video tend not to move and juding from the yelping heard I fear the innocent little pup was very much alive.

However, I do not believe all other marines are like this sick *censored*. I also do not condone the apparent publishing of his parent's phone number and them getting threats and needing police protection.

Regardless of this being staged or not, if he did it, he should face criminal prosecution and hopefully jail time. I suggest adding to that at least 1 year of community service every weekend cleaning kennels at the local shelter.

Did I want to kick his arse of a cliff after seeying that video? HELL YEAH! But it won't bring that innocent puppy back, nor will it lessen the horror of it's last moments.

On the other end of the scale there is 'Nubs'. Who was saved in Iraq by a marine and who now is in the US as said Marine managed to organize a fundraising effort to pay for the dog's transport to the US. Once the guy's tour is over, he and Nubs will be re-united.

"The more I get to know some people, the more I like dogs"

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:13:25 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's not an excuse, yet war makes people behave in ways which are naturally abhorrent in "normal" circumstances.

Not so. In fact, one of the reasons they do reconditioning is that so few people will actually shoot anyone. Even in war.

quote:

Otherwise, nobody would have willfully participated in the concentration camps.

Again, not so. The Milgram experiments show that it is authority that is the main factor.

Hell, doctors go through similar things to what soldiers do: desensitization.

Behind phrases like "subject was homogenized" lie ugly truths.

quote:

War just sucks. We're not the nicest creatures at the best of times, but in times of war... well, the results are to be seen on the video. Marine or not marine, people can be complete and utter pigs.

This has nothing to do with war.

Oh, and some armies actually use dogs for training.

For instance, the Czech (IIRC) used them for knife training and such.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:15:33 PM

charmdpetKeira

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDom
On the other end of the scale there is 'Nubs'. Who was saved in Iraq by a marine and who now is in the US as said Marine managed to organize a fundraising effort to pay for the dog's transport to the US. Once the guy's tour is over, he and Nubs will be re-united.

Now, that's a nice story. Thank you.

k

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:16:34 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Marines are meant to be warriors, NOT sadistic thugs.

The difference would be?

If you don't see the difference, it may be time to enlist.

On second thought, forget that...

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:21:52 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

My priorities are pretty clear, and pretty cold. I'd see a hundred puppies sail off a cliff if it would save one human being.

Not sure where the tradeoff would be for me, but there are a lot of people I would let fry to save a puppy.

quote:

Especially puppies that are basically parasites-and never do anything useful-only consume.

That argument holds equally well for human children, except the following:
Puppies will grow up to be loyal beings that become exactly what you mold them to be.
Children will most likely grow up to be royal bastards, regardless of how you try to mold them.

And in the aftermath of a near-extinction event, dogs and puppies will be critical to our survival, while kids will be a burden.

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:23:51 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I beg your pardon?

What I'm refering tois the sentiment that everyone one that goes to Iraq is a "hero". Fucking puppies over .... or raping 14 year olds is not the sign of a "hero".

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RE: Marines and a puppy - 3/6/2008 5:25:07 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

So the conflation of the two into smearing an entire branch with the label of being unthinking homicidal maniacs deserves no more credence than any other such blanket over simplification.

Sorry, but I don't recall ever using the term "unthinking homicidal maniacs." I said they are trained to be killers and terminators who do not think for themselves. Nowhere did I call them maniacs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Second point... because so many people get their information about the military from the same movies as you, the USMC attracts a lot of young people with compensation issues. Typically, if they stick around and don't do something really stupid, they are given a chance to grow out of it...not all of them do.

Not really sure how this is relevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And anyone who has actually served recently should be aware that for the last few decades, the USMC has made a very determined effort to avoid the bloat of other branches.
It has taken a lot of effective steps to remain a smaller, more efficient force by training to use individualism for the good of the group, and by promoting and retaining those who show evidence of being good at that.... just like many non-military organizations (which no doubt have their share of puppy killing psychos too).

Every service has their bad eggs, though in the last decade or longer, I seem to notice an increasing frequency in the horror stories from the marines compared to the other services.

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