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RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:25:47 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Remember just before the invasion of Iraq in 2003? They estimated that between one and two million people descended on London to protest the looming invasion. That's a lot of people that were informed, knowledgeable and unhappy to let this bogus "coalition" do whatever the fuck they wanted.

Once again though, "democracy' didn't listen to the voice of the people that put it there in the first place

.

Blair being Bush's bitch, he went ahead because he felt he had no choice.

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Post #: 41

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:28:25 AM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Muttling, simply pointed out who was making a profit on this war, and who was not ... and the answer to that was that he should be ashamed. Ashamed of what ... knowing who ripped us off?

I have very mixed emotions on the subject of ripping on the country for the services we provided. On the one hand, we did and do charge a seriously high rate for the services provided.

On the other hand, we struggle to exist when the country is not in such need and the government isn't concerned about our risk of bankruptcy when we are not needed.

It is a harsh existance and not a pretty one. I would prefer a far better situation where our the livelihood of military contractors during peace time was far easier and our services during war time was far cheaper. Unfortunately, I don't know of a realistic way to make that happen.

Furthermore, George Washington didn't know how to make it happen as he paid an insane premium for wagon drivers to supply his troops during the Revolutionary War. It isn't an excuse but a statement of reality folks. Give me a better solution and contractors will embrace it.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 42

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:28:33 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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Well its only fair if you want your own little pipeline in afghanastan aint it?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 43

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:28:42 AM

Ostentatious

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
I saw Level express that many people around the world thought there were WMD's in Iraq. That is a true statement. The response outlining how many protesters there were as a rebuttal of Level's statement, is meaningless.

In EXACTLY the same way that saying people supported it was meaningless. No one, other than the establishment wanted this and it's made americas international relations terrible and completely diminished much of the little respect they had in the first place.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 44

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:31:53 AM

Ostentatious

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Remember just before the invasion of Iraq in 2003? They estimated that between one and two million people descended on London to protest the looming invasion. That's a lot of people that were informed, knowledgeable and unhappy to let this bogus "coalition" do whatever the fuck they wanted.

Once again though, "democracy' didn't listen to the voice of the people that put it there in the first place .

Blair being Bush's bitch, he went ahead because he felt he had no choice.

Blair had a choice and I feel karma really let us down.

You have to remember with the marchers in London, that was about half of Londons population, many people are too old to march, many to young to understand, many people were working, busy or at sporting events (saturday is our main sports day), many lived too far away...

That small number becomes MASSIVE when you take everything into account.

Also, we weren't really marching against the invasion. I couldn't give a flying fcuk what the Americans do. I just didn't want the blood on our hands.

Shame Hugh Grant wasn't prime minister (ala love actually) at the time lol!

< Message edited by Ostentatious -- 3/10/2008 6:33:10 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 45

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:33:55 AM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostentatious

YOU started the conversation with the subject of the use of contractors on the modern battlefield. wrong!

You said:
"You're talking about profits for companies making war a good idea.

People have died in this BS 'war'. A lot of people.

You should ashamed."

quote:

You then attempted to bring non-conventional weapons into the subject matter. did i? lol okay...

You Said:
"In the mean time, Israel, The US, Russia, The UK, China, Pakistan and India have all probably increased their arsenals.

The US has NO right to dictate who can and who cannot have/develop/use WMD. None at all. "

I learned many years ago that you can't argue with those who can't even remember their own comments. Have a nice spew.

(in reply to Ostentatious)

Post #: 46

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:37:20 AM

Ostentatious

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostentatious

YOU started the conversation with the subject of the use of contractors on the modern battlefield. wrong!

You said:
"You're talking about profits for companies making war a good idea.

People have died in this BS 'war'. A lot of people.

You should ashamed."

quote:

You then attempted to bring non-conventional weapons into the subject matter. did i? lol okay...

You Said:
"In the mean time, Israel, The US, Russia, The UK, China, Pakistan and India have all probably increased their arsenals.

The US has NO right to dictate who can and who cannot have/develop/use WMD. None at all. "

I learned many years ago that you can't argue with those who can't even remember their own comments. Have a nice spew.

The first one) I was commenting on OTHER comments, you said I started the conversation, you were wrong.

The second one) You took it the wrong way and kept going, you were wrong.

I remember exactly what I said .

Shame you can't read it :)

< Message edited by Ostentatious -- 3/10/2008 6:39:15 AM >

(in reply to Muttling)

Post #: 47

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:37:35 AM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

Outa here folks. There are a few well informed comments being made but it is an effort to diffuse them from the silly crap. You can make intelligent arguments from every angle that has been presented in this discussion, but few are going to that effort.

L8R

(in reply to Muttling)

Post #: 48

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:39:58 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostentatious
No one, other than the establishment wanted this and it's made americas international relations terrible and completely diminished much of the little respect they had in the first place.

No one ... really? You can prove that? Only the establishment ... really? You can prove that?

Between one and two million people marched in London. There are between seven and eight million people in London. Roughly a quarter, give or take, are accounted for. All that can be proven is that a quarter can be considered standing against the war.

By the way ... Level has been speaking out against this war on this site, for as many months as you have weeks of membership here ... just so you know!!!

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Ostentatious)

Post #: 49

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:40:10 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostentatious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Yes, quite a lot of people did. All over the world.

'All over the world' I think not. All over the world, which for america is 50 states and nothing else...

I have a feeling the two million of us that marched through the streets of London knew it was BS from the moment it came out of Colin Powells mouth.

Remember the speech with the film of his tinker trunks above him...tut...

If the people of this world are so naive then we are doomed.

We may very well be doomed then.....

I stand by what I say.

Yep all those that watched faux news and major media never critically thinking believed it!

Some day people will learn there is a very high price when they do not think critically.

Then again maybe not.;

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 50

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:44:08 AM

Ostentatious

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
No one ... really? You can prove that? Only the establishment ... really? You can prove that?

Between one and two million people marched in London. There are between seven and eight million people in London. Roughly a quarter, give or take, are accounted for. All that can be proven is that a quarter can be considered standing against the war.

By the way ... Level has been speaking out against this war on this site, for as many months as you have weeks of membership here ... just so you know!!!

I can prove it AS MUCH as you can disprove it.

I don't give a toss whose said what and membership doesn't prove validity.

You're more intelligent than that...

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 51

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:54:38 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

I don't have to prove it ... I never made the statement.

The only thing I need to prove is that one to two million people out of a population of seven to eight million attended a protest march. That is easily proven. I also need to prove that level has made numerous anti-war posts. That too is easily proven.

Those are the two statements I made, and it's up to me to support those that I made. It is not up to me to disprove as inaccurrate, what you have yet to prove as accurate.

By the way, the "You're more intelligent than that" line wasn't very good the first five hundred times it was used on this board, and it's not getting any better with age.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Ostentatious)

Post #: 52

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 6:55:49 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

People believed it because our Administration lied to the world about it. THEY knew it wasn't true. Hell, we even sent that stooge Colin Powell to preach to the U.N.

Shameful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostentatious

quote:

ORIGINAL: subboi3382

ummm, hello, u dont remember all the WMDs that were found?

Oh, the ones that were a threat to all mankind?

Did ANYONE believe that in the first place?

Yes, quite a lot of people did. All over the world.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 53

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 7:00:23 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
People believed it because our Administration lied to the world about it. THEY knew it wasn't true. Hell, we even sent that stooge Colin Powell to preach to the U.N.

Shameful.

Very shameful, and lies built on the foundation of what was once truth. Iraq did at one time have these weapons, so the lie is compounded ... we had no evidence that had them and seemed to have a lot of evidence that they destroyed what they previously had.

It's not hard to understand how people were fooled. That's not to support it, only to understand it.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 54

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 7:14:55 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

It was well known for people who took notice of the none English speaking media that WMDs were pie in thew sky. Though the German government was too diplomatic to say the Bush was lying, there was plenty of publicity by junior politicians who pointed to German intelligence that claimed the CIA was exaggerating to the point of lying . Chirac said WMDs were a figment of the US administration's imagination and French politicians pointed to all the information claiming there wasn't any in a way that made it obvious the French government didn't believe there was any. If Americans and Brits were getting the info in the media that we were getting on this side of the English Channel, I doubt there would ahve been a war. I can only imagina the American and British media were in cahoots with their respective governments.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 55

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 7:20:53 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's not hard to understand how people were fooled. That's not to support it, only to understand it.

The war in Iraq is an example of how people passively participate in their own demise. I think it's fair to say people were willingly fooled. They agreed to be lied to.

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Post #: 56

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 7:42:01 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I think it's fair to say people were willingly fooled. They agreed to be lied to.

But why? Genuinely curious...

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 57

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 7:49:37 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I think it's fair to say people were willingly fooled. They agreed to be lied to.

But why? Genuinely curious...

I can only speculate that people like it when decisions are made on their behalf... intellectual lazyness? It was in the aftermarth of September 11th as well... what better scapegoat than Iraq? They jumped on the bandwagon. Haven't you noticed the same phenomenon in many democracies? How else would the political power get away with the crap they put out than if they had the tacit approval of their sheeplike populations?

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Post #: 58

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 7:56:59 AM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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Greetings LaM,

I'm more of the mind that hopefully this Administration had poor intel, that they built a case for war with a less than suitable network or detectives(CIA). The bad thing is we as a nation also took the word of people that it appears to me now wanted us to enter into this. It's like I say, chess is a very interesting game. Bush sure thought Putin was his pal once upon a time. Sucking up to one another down at the ranch in Texas and all.

The statement "they knew it wasn't true" seems a reach on your part. I'd need to see proof on that. That's rather slanderous when you can't provide supporting facts that at the time they knew all this. I think they had an idea that Saddam wasn't as well equipped as he lead us to believe, but I don't think they knew any more about Iraqs' WMD than they do Irans. And it sure doesn't take much WMD to wreak havoc in a huge city like New York, Boston or LA. Boy if He had decided to assist his fellow Sunni based terrorists and had done nothing and we were attact again imagine the political ammo the opposing party would have then. After al it doesn't seem that the facts on the ground matter all that much to many other than political leverage to support their latest bid for power. I remember very few people that railed against this war on the grounds they claim to have so much intel about now. There were some protestors and as is always the case many college aged kids that were afraid to go and fight a war. Hey who can blame them, lives are interrupted and people die in wars. But very few were against the war for the reasons they claim now, funny how many seem to have had full knowledge of it now, I'm pissed at these folks, where were they and their facts of proof then. Hell I also blame these folks that knew and didn't say enough. It's always fun to watch the hindsight train leaving the station, it's full of our best and brightest.

So beyond the assumption that there were lies, what do we really have proof of. Where's the proof they knew this all then. I myself would love some proof, If he lied and we can make it stand up in court I believe he should be up on charges. He should share a cell with the Abu Graib soldiers that couldn't control themselves. All I see is more of the same. Political rhetoric to get the guy or gal someone else wants in office and to slander ourselves as a nation to get a political advantage goes along with that old saying, "don't cut off your nose to spite your face".

I'm beginning to wonder if this nation can stand the test of time. I surely hope so, I surely hope so.

We may look bad as a nation for certain world wide activities of ours, but we look worse for our behavior right here at home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

People believed it because our Administration lied to the world about it. THEY knew it wasn't true. Hell, we even sent that stooge Colin Powell to preach to the U.N.

Shameful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostentatious

quote:

ORIGINAL: subboi3382

ummm, hello, u dont remember all the WMDs that were found?

Oh, the ones that were a threat to all mankind?

Did ANYONE believe that in the first place?

Yes, quite a lot of people did. All over the world.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 59

RE: The Three Trillion Dollar War - 3/10/2008 8:01:00 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

I'm still processing what I felt at that time. I'm cautious of projecting backwards what I know now onto what I thought then. I do think, though that people were genuinely frightened when politicians stated categorically that they had intelligence on further attacks, 45 minute warnings etc. It did remove a lot of the skepticism about teh war but of course, that was the point. There was a lot of disinformation and plain wrong theorising going on. I can remember exactly where I was on sept 11th tho...

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 60

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