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meatcleaver -> RE: Europe (3/13/2008 12:51:06 AM)
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I heard recently that once again those we voted into parliament have yet again denied the population the right of referendum on Europe, even though it was promised, and I believe was even part of a certain party's election promise.
So, why are we not trusted to have our say, when we are trusted to vote for a cushy existance for the mp's that have denied us?
That's about the size of it; they know we'll vote against the treaty/constitution/amendment.
Some democracy eh!
I'm assuming by 'they' you mean the EU. If that is the case NG, you are making the usual mistake of complaining about the EU when you should be complaining about the British government and the British constitution. The EU isn't denying you a right to vote, it is the British government so any inadequacies you complain about when you say 'Some democracy eh!' is an inadequacy in British democracy.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
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ORIGINAL: Aneirin
And as for the common man, would being part of Europe be better for us if we were in it.
'Depends what you mean by "in it".
I'd like to see devolved power in England, rather than centralised through Europe.
Here again, the problem is the British government. England is the only nation not recognized as a geographical entity or a minority in the EU, that is not because of any malice by the EU against England but the refusal of the British government to recognize England as a political region, prefering to break England down into regions. This is not an EU problem, it is a British problem as they designate England's status.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I'll take a limited amount of co-operation in certain areas, such as the environment, but when it comes to control over our economy and foreign policy, I most certainly want this kept in England.
Here's another way of asking the question: why do we need to be more involved with the continental Europeans than say the Americans do, or the Japanese for that matter?
Because Britain alone would have little negotiating power against the Americans and Japanese if it stood alone, more so by America and so would have less say than it as now as part of a group of nations. Britain would effectively have to like it or lump it in regard to agreements with the US and when Britian had something important on its agenda, would have to wait patiently and hope the US could spare the time. This is effectively how none EU members have to operate in regard to both the EU, America and Japan.
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
We share a certain amount of history with Europe, but we have our own unique way of doing things - better or worse is open to debate - but we're English; we're different to the French and the Germans. They have grand notions of the great nation; we have limited aspirations wrapped up in the home. I prefer our way, and would vote to keep our distance from them. Plus, if the fuckers insist on sporting mullets, who can blame me?
Every country in the EU is both unique and have a shared history, Britain no more or less. Look at British history, you can't say that Britain hasn'd sported the notion of being a great nation. This idea that Britain as a plucky little nation just off the coast of Europe is bollocks, Britain had a far bigger and more powerful Empire than the French, Germans and Spanish. I could cite hundreds of quotes and references to the British thinking themselves as a great people. Who was it that said "To be born an Englishman is to win the lottery of life.'?
Our history is inescapabley linked to Europe, as is our present and as is our future, whether we like it or not. Britain can try to shape the future of Europe or it can abstain and react to others shaping Europe. Either way, Britain won't be able to escape the influence of Europe, it never has and never will and as someone who has studied history, I assume you know that.
Britain's choice is to shape Europe from within the EU, become the 51st state of America (like many Brits would like) or become an irrelevance.
I'm not best pleased the way the EU is run either but the EU is not run like it is because of some mythical Europeans in Brussels but because of the chauvanism of nationalist politicians in London, Paris, Berlin who refuse to give power to an elected institution in the EU. It is nationalist politicians (British ones too!) denying you democracy, not mythical Europeans.
I never had you down as a nationalist NG but there you go.[;)]
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