RE: Racist

RE: Racist (Full Version)

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Alumbrado -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 5:43:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster "Is social science from whence the construct of race came, not science?" As I said, I have no idea. I've already given you a link to a lecture (he has also written at least one book: http://www.amazon.com/Race-Myth-Joseph-Graves/dp/0525948252 ) Here is a very cool pic: http://bizzbangbuzz.blogspot.com/2007/04/power-of-myth-of-race.html Here's a link to a PBS "article": http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm Do you believe that modern biology/genetics shows that there are races in the Homo Sapiens sapiens genome? Screw what the Social "Sciences" say. Since you already know the answer to that question, trying to turn a false insinuation into straw is just disingenuous. Added to your earlier logical fallacies that all science is the same, and your recent comment 'screwing' anything that blows holes in your erroneous assertions, and you now have identified yourself firmly as the garden variety troll species. A pity, you almost had me fooled for a moment, hoping that you might actually be an honest, rational, and progressive poster, instead of another pseudo-lib hatemonger using high school debate tactics to promote ignorance....I'll leave you in the company of your comrades. Whatever, dude. I think I have been entirely open and forthcoming with you. I have attempted to answer your questions, and where I did not know the answer, said so. And I have done so in good faith, in good spirits, with the intent of having a good discussion. Kitten: "Alumbrado argued (rightly, in my opinion) that in social sciences, "race" was used as a cultural construct." Me: "I accept there is a socio-political reality known as "race" wherein people are judged on the basis of skin color and other minor genetic variances." Cultural construct. Socio-political reality. You have chosen to be adversarial, aggressive, evasive, and insulting. This statement of yours, "Added to your earlier logical fallacies that all science is the same..." appears to assert that I made the statement that "all science is the same." I cannot find where I said that. Perhaps you could point it out for me. While we're at it, perhaps you can explain to me, and to the readers of this exchange, just how my belief that the concept of "race" is a human invention, and that modern genetics does not support the notion that there are separate "races" within the human genome, makes me a "hate-monger"? Yes or no, do you believe that modern biology/genetics shows that there are races in the Homo Sapiens sapiens genome? Awww.. the classic running away tactic of the outed troll...'I've been insulted'.....boo-hoo... Grow up

lronitulstahp -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 5:46:36 PM)
{{{{{{{{comes in skipping with tight white jeans and badly feathered hair...singing}}}}}}}i'm a racist, you're a racist, he's a racist, she's a racist...wouldn't you like to be a racist too???[sm=mrpuffy.gif]

stef -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 5:52:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Awww.. the classic running away tactic of the outed troll...'I've been insulted'.....boo-hoo... Grow up *He's* running away? That's not what it looks like from here. ~stef

Alumbrado -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 5:54:38 PM)
And your perspective is reliable how? My points were made, and backed up - race and racism are alive and well, as this forum proves - feel free to defend it all you want, responding to dishonest trollage is a game I'm not playing.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:03:28 PM)
"Yes or no, do you believe that modern biology/genetics shows that there are races in the Homo Sapiens sapiens genome? " It's obviously a question you're not answering, either.

stef -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:04:23 PM)
It's reliable because I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not defending anything, just making an observation. ~stef

Alumbrado -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:09:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster "Yes or no, do you believe that modern biology/genetics shows that there are races in the Homo Sapiens sapiens genome? " It's obviously a question you're not answering, either. Nice try, since the record clearly shows that you are lying...I gave a direct answer which you are dishonestly ignoring, in order to pump up the 'no such thing as race/racism' hate mantra. And your Stormfront reinforcements making fun of this aren't making you look any better.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:12:10 PM)
This statement of yours, "Added to your earlier logical fallacies that all science is the same..." appears to assert that I made the statement that "all science is the same." Where did I say that?

Alumbrado -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:15:50 PM)
Right before you admitted to the logical fallacy... you are falling apart like a cheap suit. Best run for the mods now.

RealityLicks -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:17:07 PM)
Actually, Alumbrado was closer to the truth when he said that the jury was still out. At present, what can be done with a fair measure of accuracy is to identify an individual by population. Effectively this is often the same as being able to distinguish their race - if someone has a marker for people in say, North Western Guinea-Bissau, it's likely they are black. But improving the system for spotting these markers is not the same as being able to identify genetic traits. That is either light years away ... or impossible. So it is still the case that, given a DNA sample blind, any attempt to discern the donor's race is a guess. More accurate than it once was but still a guess. Scotland Yard or the FBI do use this to place a suspect's race (which is why criminals steal your fag butts - to leave them at their crime scenes!) but it's not the same as there being genetic evidence of race. As yet, there isn't any.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 6:34:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Right before you admitted to the logical fallacy... you are falling apart like a cheap suit. Best run for the mods now. So you should be able to quote it for me then, right?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 7:08:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks Actually, Alumbrado was closer to the truth when he said that the jury was still out. At present, what can be done with a fair measure of accuracy is to identify an individual by population. Effectively this is often the same as being able to distinguish their race - if someone has a marker for people in say, North Western Guinea-Bissau, it's likely they are black. But improving the system for spotting these markers is not the same as being able to identify genetic traits. That is either light years away ... or impossible. So it is still the case that, given a DNA sample blind, any attempt to discern the donor's race is a guess. More accurate than it once was but still a guess. Scotland Yard or the FBI do use this to place a suspect's race (which is why criminals steal your fag butts - to leave them at their crime scenes!) but it's not the same as there being genetic evidence of race. As yet, there isn't any. "Misconceptions persist because of the belief that biological races exist in anatomically modern humans. Here are some of the common examples. Races differ in intellectual ability, morality and temperament. Races differ in athletic abilities. Races differ in sexual appetites, in particular that blacks are hypersexual. Races have specific diseases, thus membership in race with predict an individual's disease predisposition. Again, this is inconsistent with what we know about the genetic variation in humans, so if we apportion human genetic diversity there are 86% shared in all world populations. Every population in the world has these genes, but may have them at different frequency. Of these, 10% are unique to a given continent, and 4% are unique to a specific local population. People have said to me, 'Professor Graves, that means that if you have 4% that are unique to a specific population, couldn't you use those 4% to identify a race?' I said, yes, if you want to do it that way; you could. But that would mean that we've got about 2000 races in the human species because you can identify these 4% of rare alleles to specific geographical regions. What's the point in identifying any of them if you have so many? You would have races by every hilltop, every valley, every divide in a river. At that level, the whole idea breaks down." http://www.ahc.umn.edu/bioethics/afrgen/html/Themythofrace.html There's much more materiel in that link, but that more or less sums up why I do not accept that there "races" in the Human Genome. Here's an interesting article from that pseudo-lib hate-mongering rag Nature: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html This is fascinating, too. I haven't finished reading it, however. http://www.nchpeg.org/raceandgenetics/index.asp "Today most scientists study human genotypic and phenotypic variation using concepts such as "population" and "clinal gradation". Many contend that while racial categorizations may be marked by phenotypic or genotypic traits, the idea of race itself, and actual divisions of persons into races, are social constructs." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings%29

Owner59 -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 7:33:38 PM)
If it isn`t racism that has kept people of color down for all these years,what is it that has? Is it genetic? Is there something that`s different about black people that makes them less successful and more prone to be poor? Or is red-lining and discrimination,etc.?

FullCircle -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 7:40:45 PM)
If not for a few genes here and there we would all be bananas. So the question really should be does anyone care if you can or can't prove specific races of humans can be identified genetically? As long as people feel the need to divide society into categories using identifiers such as skin, eye and hair colour there will always be for all intents and purposes races. Why is it people persist in rambling on over subjects meaningless to anyone without a PhD in 'I know fucking everything and am the world authority on every subject from transport to human genetics.' Look at my arse it speaks science to me. Those two spotted ladybirds would like the recognition of being a separate race maybe someone here can start a thread about the distribution of ladybirds and their geopolitical structure as an abstract theme of bullshitology. Anything but using plain English we would so hate plain English. [8\|] (edit: wrong their)

mnottertail -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 7:47:38 PM)
[sm=banana.gif] I am not a one-dimensional being, you fucking banana. Harry Belafonte

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 7:51:18 PM)
It is because they were different from those that had the power at the time. Race is a cultural creation, kind of what I was describing before. It is based upon cultures, and physical characteristics. There is no real difference in the DNA of the races, except what may be inherited from your ancestors, which if often due to regional effects (such as cycle cell anemia) more than anything else. Science has gone beyond the typical race thing, but they still look at the geographical and cultural aspects. Racism does exist, in the cultural context that people feel they are superior, or that others are inferior, based solely upon physical characteristics, or cultural differences. This will always exist, not that I like it, I just accept the fact that physical appearance is one of the things we first judge by when looking at someone. These statement are based upon a standard mean, which is also a moving target depending upon the culture you are in, and the era. Personally I think that if people feel a certain way, they should be allowed to say it, especially if the have racist beliefs. This saves me time in deciding whether they are worth my time in getting to know. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If it isn`t racism that has kept people of color down for all these years,what is it that has? Is it genetic? Is there something that`s different about black people that makes them less successful and more prone to be poor? Or is red-lining and discrimination,etc.?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 7:52:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If it isn`t racism that has kept people of color down for all these years,what is it that has? Is it genetic? Is there something that`s different about black people that makes them less successful and more prone to be poor? Or is red-lining and discrimination,etc.? Oh, there absolutely is "racism"; that is, discrimination based on skin color. That's why I support Affirmative Action. Not de jure anymore in the US, but de facto. There's still red-lining. Lots of "sub-prime" refinancing marketing was targetted at minorities based on Claritas' PRIZM demographic data. I'm going to make a very long quote, as I am finding that people here are as loathe to read links as they are on B.com. Mostly righties, for some odd reason. Anyway, "The modern concept of race began to take shape during the European era of exploration. As Europeans encountered people from different parts of the world, they began to sort themselves and others into groups characterized by physical appearance. The English word “race” – which may be derived from the Spanish word raza, meaning breed or stock – first appeared in the late sixteenth century and referred to groups of people united by common descent or shared features. Over the next two centuries, various folk beliefs associated innate intellectual, behavioral, and moral qualities with groups distinguished by physical characteristics, and scientific investigations that began in the second half of the eighteenth century sought to buttress these beliefs. The ideas associated with “race” have had a profound effect on modern history. They helped justify the barbarous treatment of some groups – most notably, slaves taken from Africa, who increased in numbers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries as a preexisting trade in slaves from elsewhere in the world declined. In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, eugenicists cited these ideas about race to argue for the biological inferiority of particular groups. Campaigns of oppression and genocide throughout the twentieth century have used supposed racial differences to motivate inhuman acts against others. Today, ideas about race remain powerful lenses through which people view the world. People tend to attribute certain characteristics or shared experiences to others on the basis of their physical appearance (which in some cases becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy). Even when those characteristics are thought to be the product of a shared culture rather than biology, these cultural influences can be seen as so overwhelming that they are essentially equivalent to inherited differences." From one of my links. [:)] Hope that helps.

Owner59 -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 8:14:26 PM)
I`ve posted this before,but unfortunately some thns never go out of style. You`ve Got To Be Carefully Taught You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! General question. An earlier poster made the asinine contention that it was the existence of black-centered collages,institutions and groups like the NAACP,etc. that are responsible for racism. Question... What came 1st,the racism and discrimination that spawned outfits like Morehouse College,the NAACP and SPLC,or was it those institutions(and one`s like them) that started prejudice/fear and hate in our culture?

luckydog1 -> RE: Racist (3/14/2008 10:14:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster "Yes or no, do you believe that modern biology/genetics shows that there are races in the Homo Sapiens sapiens genome? " It's obviously a question you're not answering, either. Nice try, since the record clearly shows that you are lying...I gave a direct answer which you are dishonestly ignoring, in order to pump up the 'no such thing as race/racism' hate mantra. And your Stormfront reinforcements making fun of this aren't making you look any better. To the gallery, When alumbrado says "direct answer" he means this, "Since you already know the answer to that question, trying to turn a false insinuation into straw is just disingenuous. Added to your earlier logical fallacies that all science is the same, and your recent comment 'screwing' anything that blows holes in your erroneous assertions, and you now have identified yourself firmly as the garden variety troll species. A pity, you almost had me fooled for a moment, hoping that you might actually be an honest, rational, and progressive poster, instead of another pseudo-lib hatemonger using high school debate tactics to promote ignorance....I'll leave you in the company of your comrades." He likes to try to use the cheap trick of waiting untill the "answer" in question has moved to the next page, then pretend he directly answered it. I guess he figures people here are too lazy to notice or check. Please notice the excessive use of insults, and him declaring he is leaving. Then a few posts later he accuses hippie of "the classic running away tactic of the outed troll" For an example of a troll running away, see this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_1691586/mpage_1/tm.htm Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery. Its only just over 2 pages long. short read.

lronitulstahp -> RE: Racist (3/15/2008 7:48:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I`ve posted this before,but unfortunately some thns never go out of style. You`ve Got To Be Carefully Taught You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught! General question. An earlier poster made the asinine contention that it was the existence of black-centered collages,institutions and groups like the NAACP,etc. that are responsible for racism. Question... What came 1st,the racism and discrimination that spawned outfits like Morehouse College,the NAACP and SPLC,or was it those institutions(and one`s like them) that started prejudice/fear and hate in our culture? ummm...yeah, what He said...

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