RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 4:43:46 AM)

I made a poll on race here http://www.collarchat.com/m_1730620/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Everyone is welcome to vote there, even Rev Wright and Hillary.




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 7:05:23 AM)

In other words, individuals are powerless. Individuals are unable to act, unable to accomplish, without the backing of some "institution".

"Institutions"--whatever social entity you label thus--are comprised of individuals, and they reflect the attitudes and beliefs of those individuals. Whatever defect exists within an institution exists because it lies in individuals first.

Hatred is an evil of the individual. Racism is an evil of the individual. The solution will be found within the individual. Not within "institutions".

I respectfully disagree as do most scholars on race issues.  Do a simple google search and type in institutional racism.  Until then here's a definition of institutional racism:
Institutional racism is a form of racism which is structured into political and social institutions. It occurs when institutions, including corporations, governments and universities, discriminate either deliberately or indirectly, against certain groups of people to limit their rights. Race-based discrimination in housing, education, employment and health for example are forms of institutional racism. It reflects the cultural assumptions of the dominant group, so that the practices of that group are seen as the norm to which other cultural practices should conform (Anderson and Taylor, 2006). Institutional racism is more subtle, less visible, and less identifiable than individual acts of racism, but no less destructive to human life and human dignity. The people who manage our institutions may not be racists as individuals, but they may well discriminate as part of simply carrying out their job, often without being aware that their role in an institution is contributing to a discriminatory outcome. This not only threatens the efforts to improve health care for all Americans, but it also creates problems for a society that continues to struggle with a legacy of racial discrimination and oppression (Copeland, 2005). Although institutional racism may not necessarily be caused by intentional racism, it does however have very serious consequences for people of color in the United States especially in the health care system.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 7:33:34 AM)

quote:

Institutional racism
is a form of racism which is structured into political and social institutions. It occurs when institutions, including corporations, governments and universities, discriminate either deliberately or indirectly, against certain groups of people to limit their rights
You just gave a description for the AA/EEO program. I take it you are fighting against this form of "Institutional racism"? Or do your support legislated racial preference?

quote:

Although institutional racism may not necessarily be caused by intentional racism, it does however have very serious consequences for people of color in the United States especially in the health care system.
In fact AA is "intentional racism"; and, as you say, shouldn't be tolerated by people of any color regardless of industry.
 




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 8:13:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

In other words, individuals are powerless. Individuals are unable to act, unable to accomplish, without the backing of some "institution".

"Institutions"--whatever social entity you label thus--are comprised of individuals, and they reflect the attitudes and beliefs of those individuals. Whatever defect exists within an institution exists because it lies in individuals first.

Hatred is an evil of the individual. Racism is an evil of the individual. The solution will be found within the individual. Not within "institutions".

I respectfully disagree as do most scholars on race issues. Do a simple google search and type in institutional racism. Until then here's a definition of institutional racism:
Institutional racism is a form of racism which is structured into political and social institutions. It occurs when institutions, including corporations, governments and universities, discriminate either deliberately or indirectly, against certain groups of people to limit their rights. Race-based discrimination in housing, education, employment and health for example are forms of institutional racism. It reflects the cultural assumptions of the dominant group, so that the practices of that group are seen as the norm to which other cultural practices should conform (Anderson and Taylor, 2006). Institutional racism is more subtle, less visible, and less identifiable than individual acts of racism, but no less destructive to human life and human dignity. The people who manage our institutions may not be racists as individuals, but they may well discriminate as part of simply carrying out their job, often without being aware that their role in an institution is contributing to a discriminatory outcome. This not only threatens the efforts to improve health care for all Americans, but it also creates problems for a society that continues to struggle with a legacy of racial discrimination and oppression (Copeland, 2005). Although institutional racism may not necessarily be caused by intentional racism, it does however have very serious consequences for people of color in the United States especially in the health care system.


Respectfully, your scholars are clueless. Colleges do not discriminate; college educators discriminate. Corporations do not disciminate; Corporate executives discriminate. Governments do not discriminate; government officials discriminate. Every rule, every policy, every program deemed by any to be discriminatory or racist was crafted, implemented, and enforced by individuals.

Blaming institutions for racism is a hyper-rationalized passing of the buck. Blaming institutions lets individuals off the hook. Blaming institutions lets us couch discrimination discussions in the safe, comfortable terms of "black people" and "white people" and "latino"/"hispanic" and any other ethnic label you wish to include. Blaming institutions lets us escape our individual responsibility for what we choose in our lives.

Intellectual elocutions and pious pontifications about institutions cannot alter the reality that hatred is a human phenomenon, and thus an individual phenomenon. Racism remains a sin of the individual, and not any institution.




cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 8:25:51 AM)

One thing your opponents are carefully doing is avoiding all historical references, b/c in a historical context their arguments look damn silly.

It looks to me that their stance of "all racism is the same" and "no meaningful distinctions can be made' has as its source not personal experience or history --- but rather a hatred of government.

They are afraid that trying to correct racism or to identify what constitutes harmful racism will lead to some sort of Government initiative.

So, in the arguments here, hatred of government is actually the fixed variable controlling their POVs and racism itself is a secondary concern. This is why you are knocking on wood. They are afraid to admit anything that might lead to some sort of justification for Affirmative Action.

Sanity takes the cake though, living out there in Idaho with its 96% White population and .6% black population. It defies all logical reasoning to see how he can fear being a victim of racism out there.




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 8:57:10 AM)

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One thing your opponents are carefully doing is avoiding all historical references, b/c in a historical context their arguments look damn silly.

It looks to me that their stance of "all racism is the same" and "no meaningful distinctions can be made' has as its source not personal experience or history --- but rather a hatred of government.

They are afraid that trying to correct racism or to identify what constitutes harmful racism will lead to some sort of Government initiative.

So, in the arguments here, hatred of government is actually the fixed variable controlling their POVs and racism itself is a secondary concern. This is why you are knocking on wood. They are afraid to admit anything that might lead to some sort of justification for Affirmative Action.

Sanity takes the cake though, living out there in Idaho with its 96% White population and .6% black population. It defies all logical reasoning to see how he can fear being a victim of racism out there.

Interesting analysis and it certainly appears to be panning out.  I find it interesting the straw-man arguments posed as well.  I'm going to go crawl back under my rock and hide until some semblance of sanity is restored to the world. 
 
Oh and yes Sanity, I live in Utah.  The difference is that I know we are fucked up state. 




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:00:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One thing your opponents are carefully doing is avoiding all historical references, b/c in a historical context their arguments look damn silly.

It looks to me that their stance of "all racism is the same" and "no meaningful distinctions can be made' has as its source not personal experience or history --- but rather a hatred of government.

They are afraid that trying to correct racism or to identify what constitutes harmful racism will lead to some sort of Government initiative.

So, in the arguments here, hatred of government is actually the fixed variable controlling their POVs and racism itself is a secondary concern. This is why you are knocking on wood. They are afraid to admit anything that might lead to some sort of justification for Affirmative Action.

Sanity takes the cake though, living out there in Idaho with its 96% White population and .6% black population. It defies all logical reasoning to see how he can fear being a victim of racism out there.


Why is disagreement with your position necessarily the product of fear? Why must a celebration of individual virtue and individual responsibility be cast as a pandering to fear? Why is your pandering to groupthink not a fear of confronting your individual responsibility for your individual life?

You have made the charge. Show your evidences.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:05:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

Interesting analysis and it certainly appears to be panning out. I find it interesting the straw-man arguments posed as well. I'm going to go crawl back under my rock and hide until some semblance of sanity is restored to the world.


You should stay. Defend your point of view. If you run from those who disagree with you you undercut your own thesis.




Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:15:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

 
afraid to admit anything that might lead to some sort of justification for Affirmative Action.

If you believe that it is perfectly justifiable for people to receive an advantage based on their race, then you have no basis in principle for your complaints. You're just trying to gin up an excuse why a different race should get them instead.

 
K.




cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:38:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Why is disagreement with your position necessarily the product of fear?


That's simple: you fear affirmative action programs and as such must be careful not to acknowledge degrees of racism. Why? -- because degrees of racism show that whites have not been harmed by racism in comparison to how minorities have been.










celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:45:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Why is disagreement with your position necessarily the product of fear?


That's simple: you fear affirmative action programs and as such must be careful not to acknowledge degrees of racism. Why? -- because degrees of racism show that whites have not been harmed by racism in comparison to how minorities have been.


Repeating the charge ad nauseum is not answering the question. Answer my question directly.

That is, if you can.




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:46:19 AM)

If you believe that it is perfectly justifiable for people to receive an advantage based on their race, then you have no basis in principle for your complaints. You're just trying to gin up an excuse why a different race should get them instead.
 
K.

The people who receive advantages based on race are white people.  We get all kinds of unearned priveledge.  We get to see ourselves represented in the mass media, we can do things and not have people assume it's because of our race, we do not need to worry that our race is reason we are slighted, etc.  We have all kinds of advantages that we simply did not earn... they were entitlements because of our skin color. 
 
I would say the majority of people in power do not want to acknowledge their priveledge possition because then it becomes a moral imperative to right wrongs.  And who really wants to give up all that unearned power... that would be like giving away your inheritance because you did not earn it (hmmmm.... an entirely different commie point of view).




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 9:51:16 AM)

I think discussing race without discussing priviledge is an incomplete discussion.. I am including a portion of Peggy McIntosh's amazing essay "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack"  which can be found here.... http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

So read through this and tell me how she (or me) is wrong:

Daily effects of white privilege
I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.




Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:02:30 AM)

Jeez, you paste a quote, and then wander off into some bizarre stream of consciousness narration that has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are responding to. Isn't it a bit early for cocktails?
 
K.
 




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:03:03 AM)

Respectfully, your scholars are clueless. Colleges do not discriminate; college educators discriminate. Corporations do not disciminate; Corporate executives discriminate. Governments do not discriminate; government officials discriminate. Every rule, every policy, every program deemed by any to be discriminatory or racist was crafted, implemented, and enforced by individuals.

I do believe you've missed the nuances of the argument.  Which brings me to another nuanced argument.. that of cultural hegemony: 
Hegemony The processes by which a dominant culture maintains its dominant position: for example, the use of institutions to formalize power; the employment of a bureaucracy to make power seem abstract (and, therefore, not attached to any one individual); the inculcation of the populace in the ideals of the hegomonic group through education, advertising, publication, etc.; the mobilization of a police force as well as military personnel to subdue opposition.

Researchers use hegemony to explain how dominant groups or individuals can maintain their power -- the capacity of dominant classes to persuade subordinate ones to accept, adopt and internalize their values and norms. Antonio Gramsci devised one of the best-known accounts of hegemony. His theory defined the State by a mixture of coercion and hegemony, between which he drew distinctions. According to Gramsci, hegemony consists of socio-political power that flows from enabling the "spontaneous consent" of the populace through intellectual and moral leadership or authority as employed by the subalterns of the State. The power of the hegemony is thus primarily through coercion and consent rather than armed force. Such conceptions are sometimes referred to as "cultural hegemony."




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:05:32 AM)

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Jeez, you paste a quote, and then wander off into some bizarre stream of consciousness narration that has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are responding to. Isn't it a bit early for cocktails?
 
K.
 
The fact that you can't see the connection is the problem. 
 




Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:09:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

The fact that you can't see the connection is the problem.  

I'm afraid the real problem here is that you think there is one.
 
K.
 




giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:10:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

The fact that you can't see the connection is the problem.  

I'm afraid the real problem here is that you think there is one.
 
K.
 
yawn

edited to add:  Hey I live in Utah, I have heard virtually every excuse to justify white priviledge, including pretending it has no relationship to racism (institutional and individual).  You're attempts at snarky humor --- ahhh... yawn. 




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:12:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

If you believe that it is perfectly justifiable for people to receive an advantage based on their race, then you have no basis in principle for your complaints. You're just trying to gin up an excuse why a different race should get them instead.

K.

The people who receive advantages based on race are white people. We get all kinds of unearned priveledge. We get to see ourselves represented in the mass media, we can do things and not have people assume it's because of our race, we do not need to worry that our race is reason we are slighted, etc. We have all kinds of advantages that we simply did not earn... they were entitlements because of our skin color.

I would say the majority of people in power do not want to acknowledge their priveledge possition because then it becomes a moral imperative to right wrongs. And who really wants to give up all that unearned power... that would be like giving away your inheritance because you did not earn it (hmmmm.... an entirely different commie point of view).


Again, you slight the individual in favor of the institution. White people have advantages, black people have none. Both groups are rendered powerless before the almighty institution.

This philosophy fails to persuade because it absolves the individual of responsibility for his or her actions, for his or her words, for his or her thoughts. The individual is no longer held to account for his or her failings. Tragically, the individual is similarly denied glory and merit for his or her strengths. Progress is prevented, because individuals are denied both the positive and negative reasons to change and improve themselves.

This philosophy fails to persuade because it denies an unalterable truth, which is that only individuals can hate, just as only individuals can love. Only the individual is capable of feeling, and only the individual is capable of empathy. No "institution" is capable of these things.

When individuals have hatred in their hearts, their institutions will be hateful. When individuals have caring and compassion in their hearts, their institutions will be loving. Thus it is that correcting racism, correcting hatred, is the task of the individual, and will be accomplished among individuals, not insitutions.




Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:13:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

yawn 

Why thank you! It is always gratifying when people are so prompt in illustrating my point.
 
You don't really care, do you?
 
K.
 




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