RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (Full Version)

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Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:15:37 AM)

Even if we assume that your exaggerations about the percentage of Idaho's white population are true, your logic is still broken, cloudboy. Lets deal with your exaggerated numbers first, then I'll help you with your logic.

According to the Census Bureau (which is amazingly easy to find on the Internet), in 2006 Idaho had about an 86% white population. Here in the valley though, around the greater Boise metropolitan area, the Hispanic community is highly evident and it's growing very rapidly. There's this thing going on called "illegal immigration". Perhaps you've heard of it? Our "undocumented workers" aren't always counted in the census either, and so I'm guessing that our Hispanic population around Ada and Canyon counties has to be closer to 35%, with their numbers highly concentrated in certain areas.

And our black population has been booming since 2006 as well, due to a new federal refugee program that has been helping several thousand victims of attempted genocide from different parts of Africa relocate to a safe place like Idaho. Come catch a bus around downtown sometime. Step out of your prejudiced world, and see for yourself. The friendly Africans around here dress very, very colorfully in their native garb, and you won't miss them - I guarantee it.

Okay, now that we've fixed your (ahem) misconceptions about the great state of Idaho, lets address your faulty logic. You have to be assuming that only blacks and whites can be racist in order for your "logic" to work, concerning my "fear" of racism in Idaho. Hispanics can also be racist cloudboy... and certain members of the Hispanic community do have a lot of control in several different institutions around here.

And again, you don't know me. Maybe I deliver potatos to the Watts district in LA every day. Maybe this is my first year in Idaho. Really, this is getting tiresome - you don't know me, please quit assuming that you do.

Finally, a person doesn't need to "fear" something in order to speak against it. Example: your broken logic in this case was really scary, but I didn't fear it... and still I spoke out against it. Several people did, and I doubt any of them "feared" it either.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Sanity takes the cake though, living out there in Idaho with its 96% White population and .6% black population. It defies all logical reasoning to see how he can fear being a victim of racism out there.



Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:16:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

I have heard virtually every excuse to justify white priviledge....

Well thank you again. This is marvelous!
 
So you read my post, and you see nothing but an attempt at justifying white privilege.
 
I think we can let it go at that.
 
K.
 



giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:16:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

That's simple: you fear affirmative action programs and as such must be careful not to acknowledge degrees of racism. Why? -- because degrees of racism show that whites have not been harmed by racism in comparison to how minorities have been.



I'm glad you're here cloudboy... but I just don't have anymore left in me for this circular argument.  I'm off to celebrate the holiday for the white jesus (funny how his features became anglocized).  Hats off to you sir and kudos (these conversations always take guts and balls, both of which you have in spades). 



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:17:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

It's all wrong


That doesn't absolve you from needing to make distinctions. That doesn't absolve you from having to differentiate between offensive attitudes and harmful racial injustices. How else will you ever be able to separate the stupid idiot from a systemic evil or historical wrong?



There ya go!  That is the difference between us, cloudboy.
I don't make a distinction.  It is all wrong.  One is not less wrong than the other.  It is just a different wrong.  It might be less physically harmful at that moment...*shrug* 
But I would offer this tidbit to think about.
Mayhap it is the stupid idiot's attitude that allows the continuation of the systemic wrong.  A person who makes jokes or simply espouses an attitude is the same one who is giving tacit permission (in their mind) to another to follow that attitude through with an offensive action and feel perfectly justified. 
Wrong...Wrong...Wrong...
Okay, back to reading the remaining 4or 5 pages I need to catch up with.
 



giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:18:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

yawn 

Why thank you! It is always gratifying when people are so prompt in illustrating my point.
 
You don't really care, do you?
 
K.
 


What I didn't care about was your attempt to demean me (so don't take this out of context).  So again I say to you:
 
YAWN... you're right I don't care.



giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:20:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

I have heard virtually every excuse to justify white priviledge....

Well thank you again. This is marvelous!
 
So you read my post, and you see nothing but an attempt at justifying white privilege.
 
I think we can let it go at that.
 
K.
 


YEP



xBullx -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:29:36 AM)

Write in (Bull)



cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:41:04 AM)

According to your own link, White People comprise 95.2% of Idaho's population. You better keep your guard up.



Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:44:30 AM)

I see where you're making your mistake, you don't realize that eight lines down, where it says "White Persons" the Census Bureau normally counts Hispanics in that total number. You have to go down a total of 15 lines to where it says "White persons not Hispanic" .

If you need any more help with this be sure and let me know.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:46:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

I think discussing race without discussing priviledge is an incomplete discussion.. I am including a portion of Peggy McIntosh's amazing essay "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" which can be found here.... http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

So read through this and tell me how she (or me) is wrong:


She is wrong because she generalizes, and thus eradicates individual experience.

A white man with a strong southern accent and Appalachian roots will be derided as illiterate and uneducated, no matter the reality.

A white man born in Utah will be questioned with suspicion that he is a Mormon, no matter the reality of his religious upbringing.

A white man who wears a beard and long hair, prefers jeans to dockers, will be followed when he walks into a store. He will be stopped by police and questioned without probable cause.

These experiences are rejected by Ms McIntosh's extensive list, because the person recieivng the ill treatment is white. Yet these experiences are real.

Ms McIntosh is wrong because she would reduce all of discrimination to a reaction predicated on skin color: she would argue that discrimination is something that can only be expressed between people of differing skin color. Hatred, bigotry, and even racism can and do occur among persons of similar skin color: Rwanda and Srebenicia are stark evidences of that. Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner died alongside James Chaney because of that.

Ms McIntosh is wrong because she dehumanizes people. She eliminates all distinguishing characteristic but race.

Ms McIntosh is wrong because she absolves individuals of the imperfections in their own thoughts.



Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 10:47:28 AM)

Against racism?

You bet.

You do the same.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

According to your own link, White People comprise 95.2% of Idaho's population. You better keep your guard up.



giveeverything -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:18:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

She is wrong because she generalizes, and thus eradicates individual experience.

These experiences are rejected by Ms McIntosh's extensive list, because the person recieivng the ill treatment is white. Yet these experiences are real.

Ms McIntosh is wrong because she would reduce all of discrimination to a reaction predicated on skin color: she would argue that discrimination is something that can only be expressed between people of differing skin color. Hatred, bigotry, and even racism can and do occur among persons of similar skin color: Rwanda and Srebenicia are stark evidences of that. Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner died alongside James Chaney because of that.

Ms McIntosh is wrong because she dehumanizes people. She eliminates all distinguishing characteristic but race.

Ms McIntosh is wrong because she absolves individuals of the imperfections in their own thoughts.


You missed the part where she says:
I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined.

She did not say that other factors do not matter she was merely pointing out issues where skin color is at issue.  And yes we do judge people by how they talk and what religion they are -- she is not discussing that issue here, she is talkign about the unearned privlidges of white skin.  In the intro to her essay she says (and I fully agree with):
 
I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege...So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.



cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:34:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I see where you're making your mistake, you don't realize that eight lines down, where it says "White Persons" the Census Bureau normally counts Hispanics in that total number. You have to go down a total of 15 lines to where it says "White persons not Hispanic" .

If you need any more help with this be sure and let me know.


Yes, I do need help. What's the difference between "white persons" and "white persons not Hispanic?"

Am I a "white person," or am I a "white person who is not Hispanic." Are Hispanic's white persons?

This is getting confusing.



DaddyPostsgirl -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:38:21 AM)

hispanics i believe are from spain ... so yes they would be considered white... if you are not from spain you are a white person not hispanic



cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:46:00 AM)

But what about history? How do you compare A white man with a strong southern accent and Appalachian roots with Jews living in Europe during WWII, the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, the Hutus in Rwanda, or African Americans living in the South before the civil rights era?

To make it mano-e-mano --- How do your compare James Merideth to A white man born in Utah will be questioned with suspicion that he is a Mormon, no matter the reality of his religious upbringing.

Is it all just the same to you?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:46:43 AM)

She (and you) dismiss "all these other factors" in order to focus exclusively on skin color. That is wrong. It is a wrong idea and a wrong approach, and it merits nothing but itself to be dismissed.

She (and you) err by misplacing your attentions. In choosing to focus solely on skin color, you legitimize distinction, and thus discrmination, on the basis of skin color. You would render the discussion one predicated on the color of skin and not the content of character. You would depersonalize and dehumanize that which is intensely personal and intrinsically human.

When all the nuance is explored, at the core of discrimination and prejudice is hatred. When all the debating is done, we still are left with the reality that hatred is wrong. All of the scholars and all of the quotes and all of the rationalizations about skin color have not and will not alter that reality.



cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:49:45 AM)

By this analysis, 95% of the people in Idaho are white, then. (Nothing else better to do today but split hairs.)



cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:53:11 AM)


I don't understand how **degree** doesn't matter to you.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 11:56:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

By this analysis, 95% of the people in Idaho are white, then. (Nothing else better to do today but split hairs.)


Back when he wasn't running a race based campaign, 80% of those white racist bastards voted for Senator Obama at the caucuses; only 17% voted for Senator Clinton. The result must speak for their gender bias I'm sure.



BitaTruble -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/23/2008 12:00:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Yes, I do need help. What's the difference between "white persons" and "white persons not Hispanic?"

Am I a "white person," or am I a "white person who is not Hispanic." Are Hispanic's white persons?

This is getting confusing.



It's easy, Cloudboy. The difference is one of those supports Sanity's words and the other one doesn't. 

"where it says "White Persons" the Census Bureau normally counts Hispanics in that total number." Sanity doesn't want you to do what the Census Bureau normally does because then he can't say that your numbers are skewed. It's called spin. Politicians do it all the time.

Forget the % of whites who are not hispanic and just go with the .7% black population to make your argument. Throwing out the gravy still leaves the meat.

Carry on.

Celeste



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