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Giving the Dom control over release: being released, as... - 9/27/2005 1:28:55 AM   
SirKnottynNice


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: My mind to Y/yours
Status: offline 		So not to [highjack]Collars & Rings[/highjack]
I decided to start a new thread.
In the collars & rings thread I said this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKnottynNice
<snip>

Now one thing though,
I believe that 'alone' the collar has a stronger meaning and bond than a ring.
I say this because, a "Wife" can remove her ring, and file for divorce if she feels unhappy, or things didn't go as she had expected/wanted.

A "sub/slave/pet" cannot just remove her collar, or file for divorce, or break up just because things didn't go her way.
She has three choices...
1. deal with it, (for she is willing to put up with just about anything for her owner)
2. Ask to be released from her collar/contract (if a "contract" is in place)
3. Wait for Hin to release her, if He feels it isn't working out.

That being said, IMO, a collar & a ring together is probably the strongest bond, <snip>

Be well

and a couple of responses got me thinking...

All due respect to the below OPs

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPurrmeow
<snip>
and contrary to previous posts, both are similarly dissolvable. A "slave" regardless of contract or collar can walk away just as easily (much easier actually) than one with whom you have signed a marriage license application.
**This is very true, due to the laws & procedures involved in dissolving a marriage.
It is alot easier for slave to walk without the need of a maritial lawyer.

However, If in the begining of the relationship, before the collar is given/recieved it is agreed apon in a written or verbal "contract" that the collar can only be removed by the Owner, then those vows MUST be honored. (Well, realisticly *should* be honored)

What it really comes down to is commitment/or lack of commitment to the agreed apon vows within the contract.

The strength of either commitment is in the bold determination to live up to what you have promised each other.
<snip>
**I agree, That is why I feel a collar can have a stronger signifigance than a wedding ring/marriage licence.

IMO, a Wife (though loving to her Hubby as she may be) doesn't have the same level of commitment to her Hubby as a sub/slave has for her Master.
That's not to say that a good vanilla woman can't make a good wife,.
I prefer the submissive, & I would want both the Ring and the collar in O/our relationship.

Purr


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

Now one thing though,
I believe that 'alone' the collar has a stronger meaning and bond than a ring.
I say this because, a "Wife" can remove her ring, and file for divorce if she feels unhappy, or things didn't go as she had expected/wanted.

A "sub/slave/pet" cannot just remove her collar, or file for divorce, or break up just because things didn't go her way.
She has three choices...
1. deal with it, (for she is willing to put up with just about anything for her owner)
2. Ask to be released from her collar/contract (if a "contract" is in place)
3. Wait for Hin to release her, if He feels it isn't working out.


With respects, I do disagree here.
**No worries, I value other's input.
*smiles*

A contract is a contract. Marriage or not. And if that slave/sub/kajira/wife has to leave because to stay is not in their best interest - then the contract is null and void.
**This is 100% true, if in any relationship things are non consentual, abusive, & unsafe, then by all means screw the contract. I fully understand that.

I would like to mention that, though we are not perfect, and do not live in a perfect word, if the Dom takes pride in the precious gift of submission and honors Himself, His sub/slave & T/their contract, things should not get to the point of His sub/slave wanting/needing to leave Him.


If a slave/sub/kajira/wife has been let down by her husband/Master/Daddy in anyway at all and is not growing or is being stiffled, then the contract is already null and void.
**Agreed

It would be very unwise and dangerous for anyone to believe that a contract or collar means no escape unless the dominant 'says so'.
**Now, I did not say "no escape".
I can sense through your words your concern that "no esape", the "trapt" feeling could destroy the D/s dynamic, and that is fully understandable, but it is the Doms/Masters responsibility to treat that amount of power with care.

If I collar a sub/slave, and for whatever reason she wants release & I rufuse, & hold her against her will, that is not Safe Sane & Consentual.
Also, that makes me selfish, and thus not displaying true Dom's behavior.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my reply quoted above.
First, let me start off by saying that any Dom/Master/Daddy that *actually* believes He *OWNS* His Sub/slave/littleone, is in a fantasy land.
Any control a Dom/Master/Daddy has is *given* to them.

That being said, allow me to say again that this kind of extreme control over one, & one's release is completely agreed apon before giving/recieving a collar.

If the Dom/Master sub/slave agrees apon this kind of control and the sub/slave feels she wants release she must ask for release.
Now, if the Dom refuses her release He must do whatever neccessary to fix the issue that is causing the sub/slave to want out.
If He cannot fix the issue, or He fucked up, (deal breaker) He must release her.

He has to live up to his end of the agreement in the contract too, and in said contract it would state the Doms responsibility to release when there is no other alternative.
If He cannot do this then the contract is null & void just as it would be if the sub/slave were to remove the collar without having/asking the Owner to remove it.

Anything that breaks O/one's trust, a deal breaker, breaking a hard limit , or breaking agreements in a contract, would usualy end up in a removal of the collar anyway, whether it is an honorable removal or not.


I hope I have cleared things up a bit, and eased any concerns you may have had.

In closing, I'd like to point out that this is not something I made up, and in fact I had read it in a BD/SM site for beginners, when I had first started my journey into this lifestyle, I just happened to adapt it in my lifestyle.

Remember, there is no right way wrong way to D/s-BD/SM, we all do it differently.
One of my favorite quotes is "Y/your kink may not be My kink, but it's all good kink."

Be well

*Edited to add I have only met one person that was willing to except such an extreme control over her, & her release, but I was vanilla with her for 4 yrs before I offered her my collar, (TPE 24/7) which she NEVER removed without my permission(except showers obviously).
What a good girl.


< Message edited by SirKnottynNice -- 9/27/2005 1:47:31 AM >

_____________________________

your ass would look cute red

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 5:02:52 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I know some slaves who honestly feel it is not within their scope of reality to choose to become unowned. I'm not going to question their self-assessment of the situation.

Personally, I have never been forced to release myself from a situation and it's not an idea I think about often, in fact it's something I really don't like thinking about and try to avoid.

Intellectually I KNOW I could leave, in fact I know I SHOULD leave if certain elements present themselves. I've had enough really bad stuff happen to me to KNOW that my self-preservation WOULD kick in to prevent bad things from going on if it came to that point.

Whether I would still be able to consider myself a slave after such a drastic event...I don't know.

(in reply to SirKnottynNice)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 5:11:24 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

A contract is a contract. Marriage or not.


Um, have you ever tried to get out of a marriage? A legal and binding contract (marriage) is not easily gotten out of. All contracts are NOT the same.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 5:30:05 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		No offense, but I really have to offer some reality here:

1. A collar, like any sign of commitment, is what you make of it. However, I see PLENTY more collars being handed out than engagement or wedding rings amongst lifestylers. Just ask yourself, how many collars have you (any reader) had or given versus how many times you (the reader) have been married? How about what you have observed from others?

When a collar legally entitles a slave/submissive to half of a Dominant's property (as if a married couple without a prenup), then collars will have just as much significance as a wedding ring and will be dispensed with a similar degree of consideration and contemplation. Until then, it's an enjoyable fantasy for the vast majority (though it can be accurate for a specific individual, and I know, everyone reading this says they're the exception).

The best analogy to be made for collars is that they're like giving someone your pledge pin. It signifies "going steady". For most that means going steady for a while, then breaking up and moving on. For some (relatively few), they go steady and then go on to get married and have a life together.

Historically, collars are a symbol of ownership. Some own more, some less. Some own it for a lifetime, others for just a night. It is what you make of it.

2. Just try to keep a slave/submissive from leaving your home because you refuse to uncollar him/her and see how fast the police end up on your doorstep. If they stay, it's consensual. If they really want to leave, they leave. Kidnapping, rape and torture do not have "lifestyle exclusions" (though we all enjoy reading about the infrequent practitioner who takes this fantasy literally).

3. Any slave/submissive that "can't" leave on their own, particularly when their health (emotional or physical) depends upon it, suffers from a mental illness. I'm not being glib here, that's a serious mental illness and would (in my view) preclude someone from being able to offer consent in the first place.

I know this may step on a few toes, but I simply see it as an interesting exercise in theory/fantasy vs. reality. Steel toed shoes are available at the front. Grab yourself a pair.

John


(in reply to SirKnottynNice)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 5:33:54 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		P.S. - Lifestyle contracts are not legally binding documents. At best they are communication tools. At worst, they are evidence to be used against you in court (depending upon your locale, the nature of the topics in the document, and who your partner may ultimately share it with.... like during a contentious divorce).

< Message edited by Rover -- 9/27/2005 5:34:16 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 5:59:35 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Just ask yourself, how many collars have you (any reader) had or given versus how many times you (the reader) have been married? How about what you have observed from others?


Thank you, John. You made the point much better than I did!


(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 6:12:56 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

No offense, but I really have to offer some reality here:

1. A collar, like any sign of commitment, is what you make of it.
John




No Steel Toes here John, I too am in total agreement............

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 6:47:12 AM   
night101owl


Posts: 83
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		It is far easier to remove a collar than to leave a marriage. In leaving a marriage, the full force of the nation's government stands in the way, forcing the individuals to maneuver through red tape, divide property, pay legal fees, etc., while the individuals deal with the fact that they are retracting vows earlier given in all sincerity.

In removing a collar, there is only the retraction of something earlier given in sincerity.

There is no "one twue way" for someone to be a slave. If they live in a nation like the US where slavery is illegal, then the construct of "slave" is NOT (as marriage is) something created and defined by society at large-- only one person determines what it means to be a slave, and that is the person who identifies as such. He may find pleasure in asking his master to define what it means to be a slave, but he always has the final say, every moment, every day, in whether or not to accept that man's definition. Likewise, he may ask his master to decide whether or not to end the relationship, but he determines whether or not to follow his partner's decision. If he finds pleasure in obedience, then he is most likely to pursue that pleasure and obey, but the choice is always his.

(in reply to SirKnottynNice)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 6:54:54 AM   
night101owl


Posts: 83
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Lifestyle contracts are not legally binding documents. At best they are communication tools. At worst, they are evidence to be used against you in court (depending upon your locale, the nature of the topics in the document, and who your partner may ultimately share it with.... like during a contentious divorce).


Very true, but I have to add that if the document involves the words "slave contract", then I can't imagine any judge (in the U.S.) upholding any element of the contract as binding. I can see a clever lawyer using it in the argument "look at what crazy kinks this poor spouse had to put up with from her partner-- she clearly deserves a better property settlement." But the title "slave contract" would pretty much make the contract as a whole illegal.

edited to add-- looking back on your post, I think this is precisely what you were saying-- I'm down to one cup of coffee a day, not quite with it this morning.

And on a more practical note, I've seen it argued (not here, I don't think) that BDSM community would at least try to persuade the parties to follow such a contract, but I have never met anyone in the community who would do so. These "contracts" are nothing more that communication tools.




< Message edited by night101owl -- 9/27/2005 6:56:09 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 7:01:56 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Very well said, nightowl. Consensual slavery (or submission) has its own realities, rather different from those inherent to the nonconsensual slavery in American history, or that which continues to exist in other areas of the world.

John

(in reply to night101owl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 7:04:15 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		*LOL* Again, we are in complete agreement, nightowl. No "contract" can make legal what is patently illegal. If it did, every drug dealer and prostitute would simply enter into a contract with their clients.

John

(in reply to night101owl)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/27/2005 7:08:18 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		P.S. - I know personally of several instances in which written documents (including lifestyle "contracts") have been used in contentious divorce proceedings in order to portray one party or the other as unfit for child custody, unsupervised visits, etc.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 9:36:06 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		An interesting concept however I believe that a slave has the advantage over a spouse in just walkinmg away to leave it all behind.IE no legal involments at all custody, bills etc..IN my view a slave has the right to say"it over" and I for one would not want a slut around that really didn't want to be with me....of course this is just the view of this ol MASTER

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to SirKnottynNice)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 9:48:07 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		I've had 3 Dominants, 1 collar and I've released myself once.

A submissive/slave has as much right to be happy as a Dominant/Master. If the relationship makes you miserable, either party has the right to end it. It's called reality.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 9:48:16 AM   
MsPurrmeow


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
No offense, but I really have to offer some reality here:
1. A collar, like any sign of commitment, is what you make of it. However, I see PLENTY more collars being handed out than engagement or wedding rings amongst lifestylers. Just ask yourself, how many collars have you (any reader) had or given versus how many times you (the reader) have been married? How about what you have observed from others?
John


Well said John, and this breaks my heart. Too many are in a rush to toss out collars, and too many submissives leave if they don't get one right away. I want the one "forever". I want the one that has just as much pull as a marriage. I won't have a slave contract, but I will have other agreements and legal bindings that make them an equal partner (after time) with my current family. My poly-mariage of over a decade does not rely on a marriage license to bind us, we've found other legal, financial and obligatory ways that no one can tear us apart, and my slave will be just as equal in those dealings at some point.

My husband who wears a collar has stated many times that the ring IS his collar, and the collar is just another beautiful representation of the same thing and the same commitment. In fact he spoke the same vows on both occasions. I'm looking for a person who understand these things.

quote:

When a collar legally entitles a slave/submissive to half of a Dominant's property (as if a married couple without a prenup), then collars will have just as much significance as a wedding ring and will be dispensed with a similar degree of consideration and contemplation.


In my world, because of how we organize things, it DOES mean the same thing. Maybe when there are submissives out there who truly want to submit rather than just not wanting to deal with the rigors of vanilla-world responsibilities, we'll see more of that. Too many just want it to "all go away". They don't WANT to be responsible for me in my old age, like I will for them. They WANT to be able to leave when the going gets tough. The collar not being legally binding leaves them an exit at their whim.

In other words, until people are willing to make a real commitment to a future and a relationship for life on both sides, then collars are simply going to be a thing of fantasy and a way to avoid the reality of commitments. I love the concept of collars as conscious commitments to a type of structure, though, but first and foremost, I need the commitment to the bond. That CAN be done legally if the people involved want it to be so.

quote:

3. Any slave/submissive that "can't" leave on their own, particularly when their health (emotional or physical) depends upon it, suffers from a mental illness.


I know it's not PC, but I believe this to be the truth. A submissive who claim this would never be on my radar as a prospect, either. They have to be able to leave for me to be happy that they have stayed. They have to be able to say "No" for me to be happy that they said "Yes."

Thanks John/Rover. You layed it out well. I do hope more can see it as clearly.

Purr

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 10:00:04 AM   
grits


Posts: 24
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		i've had one marriage, and one collar -- not to the same man. Of the two, the marriage was much more expensive to get out of legally, but neither one was "easy" to walk away from, even though i knew in my heart of hearts that leavng (both) was the only way i was going to survive.

As in most cases, i think it's a case of "YMMV"


(in reply to MsPurrmeow)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 10:31:53 AM   
night101owl


Posts: 83
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPurrmeow
My poly-mariage of over a decade does not rely on a marriage license to bind us, we've found other legal, financial and obligatory ways that no one can tear us apart, and my slave will be just as equal in those dealings at some point.


I'm really curious about this. As a dyke and an almost-lawyer (I get my bar results in October), I'm fairly familiar with the various ways a couple can share some legal privileges and obligations, when marriage is not something that's available. There aren't a whole lot of avenues, and with state constitutional amendments against gay marriage, there are even fewer (the amendments provide ammunition to invalidate certain contracts, etc.).

I'm not asking you to share any personal information that you're not comfortable sharing, but I am curious what kinds of legal bonds you've been able to create?

(in reply to MsPurrmeow)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 1:05:54 PM   
TearCollector


Posts: 108
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		In my initial appearance into the lifestyle, I thought I understood that a slave needed a Masters permission to leave. I thought I understood that slaves need this type of control and agreed to this as part of the rules in the lifestyle. I was wrong and I learned this the hard way.

I found someone I believed perfect for me in everyway. The word perfect doesn’t even do justice to what I felt. She declared herself to feel exactly the same. I felt we had a bond that was unbreakable. If you can believe that I am not ignorant or naive, then you can believe my shock when she suddenly announced that a previous Master had called her back and she would not be available for me.

We still communicate on occasion, but no one reading this will understand the crater I was thrusted into when that event took place. It was however, a learning experience. I know now that a slave walks out the door like any other person when they want too. (Contract or not). So to keep a slave, they must want to stay. Bottom line, D's relationships are not immune to the work it takes to keep any other relationship together. It’s nice to think otherwise, but we would be fooling ourselves like I so painfully did.

Sorry to blubber all over this post. It’s obviously something I have kept to myself a long time and this thread offered an opportunity to dump some water over the "damn".

TearCollector

(in reply to night101owl)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/28/2005 6:45:25 PM   
sultryvoice


Posts: 368
Joined: 3/31/2004
Status: offline 		I have never been collared but I have been married. A divorce is an expensive proposition. Both a divorce and leaving a Master/Mistress is an emotional drain..But, either way, you both lose..

Respectfully,
sultry

_____________________________

Blessed are the cracked,
For it is they who let in the light.


www.themarkbycpi.com

(in reply to TearCollector)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 9/29/2005 5:14:04 AM   
sting516


Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I've had 3 Dominants, 1 collar and I've released myself once.

A submissive/slave has as much right to be happy as a Dominant/Master. If the relationship makes you miserable, either party has the right to end it. It's called reality.


While i would agree with this concept for a submissive, i can't go along with that if one is an owned slave (using the bdsm context)...slaves have only the rights afforded by their owner...and even those can be taken away...i will agree that the slave has the right to want to be happy, but once they give themself to an Owner, it is the Owner who will help determine their happiness.

Just my opinion.

sting

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 20
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