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BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 9:34:12 AM   
leatherylace


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		What is the history behind BDsM?

More importantly when was BDsM revealed as a part of queer subculture?

Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn more about BDsM throughout history.

Leather and Lace
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 9:44:27 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherylace

What is the history behind BDsM?

More importantly when was BDsM revealed as a part of queer subculture?

Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn more about BDsM throughout history.

Leather and Lace



Here are some references for you.
http://68.165.124.71/Rob's%20Dissertation/SM%20and%20Fetishism%20Bibliography.pdf

The full text can be obtained at http://www.americanfetish.net/

Short answer is that consensual BDSM (now I feel "consensual" is implied, but here I'm making it specific) is relatively new.

The dissertation finds some prodomming and fetish prior to WWII.

The gay SM subculture (Old Guard) blossomed after the war but the first public hetero BDSM organization (The Eulenspiegel Society) appeared in 1970.

[It pays to be an old fart with a good memory sometimes]

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 9:51:37 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Also, the point when BDSM became really taboo was in the 1890s. A british book about the psychology of sexuality listed sado-masochism, oral sex, masturbation, and homosexuality as "psychosis". The book was definately a product of Victorian morality. It was never intended for the general public, but ended up being a best seller.

Many of the views on sex in the UK and the US are still based on this book today.

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 10:12:32 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Also, the point when BDSM became really taboo was in the 1890s. A british book about the psychology of sexuality listed sado-masochism, oral sex, masturbation, and homosexuality as "psychosis". The book was definately a product of Victorian morality. It was never intended for the general public, but ended up being a best seller.

Many of the views on sex in the UK and the US are still based on this book today.


Since it was first published in 1886,I think you're referring to Psychopathia Sexualis by Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing. However, he published in Austria. He wanted to keep it out of the hands of laymen so much that large portions of "the good stuff" was written in Latin.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 9/28/2005 10:14:15 AM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 10:26:50 AM   
frenchpet


Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Also, the point when BDSM became really taboo was in the 1890s. A british book about the psychology of sexuality listed sado-masochism, oral sex, masturbation, and homosexuality as "psychosis". The book was definately a product of Victorian morality. It was never intended for the general public, but ended up being a best seller.

Note that "homosexuality" and "psychosis" were new words ("homosexuality" (in english) was first recorded in 1892, in a translation, and psychosis was first recorded in 1847, psychotic dates from 1890). Using those words was trendy in itself. I'm not sure it became a taboo at that time. It's rather the first time that a mad Doktor openly spoke about vile sexual desires.

edit : the first mention of the word homosexual in english is in the translation of the book mentionned by John (Krafft-Ebing's "Psychopathia Sexualis"). Krafft-Ebing was german, not british.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 9/28/2005 10:37:03 AM >

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 10:33:58 AM   
night101owl


Posts: 83
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		There's a discussion list at yahoo where people discuss this at great length, and try to pick apart fact from myth, to some degree.
groups.yahoo.com/group/LeatherHistory/

(in reply to leatherylace)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 12:27:14 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'll agree with John and this dissertation and refuse to get into this more cause the discussion of the history of anything is likely to get me talking and talking and borderline preaching.

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

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(in reply to JohnWarren)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 3:49:04 PM   
WickedKev


Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline 		1700's London was famous for it's 'Spanking Houses' in Covent Garden but more importantly we had the 'Hell Fire Club' which was a mixture of SM devil worship and good old orgies. And as your Ben Franklin spent a lot of time over here before the revolution and was reputed to have been a regular guest at these functions. I am not saying these are the origins as reports of SM and BDSM in some forms go back as far as medieval times. Will Shakespere has even touched on the subject. Some of the famous orgies in ancient Rome have talked about bondage and spanking.

< Message edited by WickedKev -- 9/28/2005 3:53:14 PM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 3:55:25 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Ben Franklin spent a lot of time over here before the revolution and was reputed to have been a regular guest at these functions.


Say it ain't so. I thought his kink was kites!

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 4:58:40 PM   
WickedKev


Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Ben Franklin spent a lot of time over here before the revolution and was reputed to have been a regular guest at these functions.


Say it ain't so. I thought his kink was kites!


Well using an american navy term the scuttlebut over here is he liked his ass spanked. Maybe where he got hi idea for electricity.......

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 5:21:03 PM   
frenchpet


Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
Say it ain't so. I thought his kink was kites!


Well using an american navy term the scuttlebut over here is he liked his ass spanked. Maybe where he got hi idea for electricity.......

OMG ! You mean all his work about electricity was done to fulfill his masochistic fantasies !? Who could have guessed ?
Btw, do you have any reference about spanking and bondage in roman orgies ? I'm sure there is something about this, but the only reference I could think of was Astérix chez les Helvètes
Ugh, the wiki article doesn't even mention that Astérix is the name of the first satellite sentby a french rocket (in 1965, after USSR and USA).

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 9/28/2005 5:40:26 PM >

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 5:49:34 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Also, the point when BDSM became really taboo was in the 1890s. A british book about the psychology of sexuality listed sado-masochism, oral sex, masturbation, and homosexuality as "psychosis". The book was definately a product of Victorian morality. It was never intended for the general public, but ended up being a best seller.

Many of the views on sex in the UK and the US are still based on this book today.


Since it was first published in 1886,I think you're referring to Psychopathia Sexualis by Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing. However, he published in Austria. He wanted to keep it out of the hands of laymen so much that large portions of "the good stuff" was written in Latin.


You are correct. I wrote this during my first cup of coffee this morning. What I meant was that the book was widely read in Britain and became a barometer of Victorian society. The book was not intended for general consumption, but boy did that repressed society gobble that book up.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 9/28/2005 9:24:50 PM >

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 5:56:35 PM   
WickedKev


Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
Say it ain't so. I thought his kink was kites!


Well using an american navy term the scuttlebut over here is he liked his ass spanked. Maybe where he got hi idea for electricity.......

OMG ! You mean all his work about electricity was done to fulfill his masochistic fantasies !? Who could have guessed ?
Btw, do you have any reference about spanking and bondage in roman orgies ? I'm sure there is something about this, but the only reference I could think of was Astérix chez les Helvètes
Ugh, the wiki article doesn't even mention that Astérix is the name of the first satellite sentby a french rocket (in 1965, after USSR and USA).


The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, I Claudius by Robert Graves (Based on the writings of the times) Writings of Cicero, Documentries (Just had a good series on that over here) Anything I can read about Rome (Guess I love the coruption.

(in reply to frenchpet)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 7:36:11 PM   
WayHome


Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		Ben Franklin is one of my heros. His Autobiography is a great book.

He has always been considered a bit kinky by some standards though I've never read of any real BDSM.

One of his quotes used to be a common American saying: "All cats a grey at night." Well the metaphor lost some of it's broad apeal after it became widely held that Old Ben was using the word "cat" the way we use the word "pussy". Kinda puts a different spin on it, eh?

This may or may not have been a reference to his well-know predilition for older women. He said he prefered older women because they were always so grateful. Again it's often been assumed that he meant he liked being charitable to women older than himself but it seems more likely he really meant that they were more fun because they were more likely to work harder in bed.

He's also reputed to have sired a LOT of illigitimate children.


Leto

(in reply to leatherylace)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 8:49:21 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		BDSM has been around for the entirety of history. If you look at various aspects of history (the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.) all the key elements are there. It would be interesting to go back through some of our high school history textbooks and read them for BDSM context. We'd be shocked.

_____________________________

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"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 9:26:13 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

BDSM has been around for the entirety of history. If you look at various aspects of history (the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.) all the key elements are there. It would be interesting to go back through some of our high school history textbooks and read them for BDSM context. We'd be shocked.



No doubt BDSM has been around for all of history, but the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition have no more to do with BDSM than the Korean War and Great Proletarian Culture Revolution do.

BDSM is a broad thing, but is in general an intimacy issue - sexual, psychologial, interpersonal. The Crusades and the Holy Office of the Inquisition are political - conflict between and within polities.

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 10:30:51 PM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		If ol' Ben was getting his kicks from lightening does that mean he invented (or at least was the first to use) the 'tens' unit too?

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/28/2005 10:41:47 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OscarHargraves
If ol' Ben was getting his kicks from lightening does that mean he invented (or at least was the first to use) the 'tens' unit too?


Actually, given the kind of electricity involved, let's just say he found a really really big violet wand.

You gotta love a guy who can get his ass almost kicked out of the Court of the Louis...... for immorality!!!!!!!


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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 1:16:54 AM   
frenchpet


Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: OscarHargraves
If ol' Ben was getting his kicks from lightening does that mean he invented (or at least was the first to use) the 'tens' unit too?


Actually, given the kind of electricity involved, let's just say he found a really really big violet wand.

You gotta love a guy who can get his ass almost kicked out of the Court of the Louis...... for immorality!!!!!!!


OMG ! I had no idea someone could be immoral in Versailles' standards !!! How did he do that !?
Was he caught flogging dead horses ?


(which mixes bestiality, necrophilia and sadism :p )

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 7:53:43 AM   
leatherylace


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Where does actual slavery come into BDsM. The M/s dynamic was in black history was definatly not consensual. I once had a converstaoin with my mom (vanilla) who was saying that it was wrong and immoral to even act out consensually the M/s dynamic.


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