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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 8:49:23 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Such a revolution cannot be achieved in a mere few decades, justme. It will take a while yet for the glass ceiling to be shattered to smithereens. In the meantime, we'll just have to keep on poking at it with our beaks, obstinate little chicks that we are.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 8:52:07 AM   
Justme696


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Status: offline 		it is not fair to see this as a battle of "just" the last decades. We are talking over centuries. Why do females accept this?

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 8:54:33 AM   
subtee


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Status: offline 		Maybe we should just wrestle. Oh, you're in England... A joust? Nevermind.

quote:

If you were to argue that women had no choice to resist what was forced upon them by men, it follows, thus, only men can improve the lot of women; which, by extension, suggests we are your masters and ultimately stronger than you. The inference being that we have total power to run your lives.


I have not argued that women have no choice to resist. I try to avoid absolutes like that. Therefore, "only" men..."we are your masters"..."total power"...none of those resultant statements linearly follow for me.

quote:

Yes, the point of my post is to suggest women have chosen second class status for themselves by accepting being thought of as second class, and thinking of themselves as second class. They don't have to accept this position in any area of their lives.


Again to clarify from whence male dominance has come (in NG world); it's genesis is in the decision of and by women to chose and accept and think of themselves as second class. Not, instead, from the "natural" or chosen dominance of men??? We do indeed have a lot of power then. 

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 8:56:32 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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quote:

why Woman feel they are?


because im fucking hot!


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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 9:04:17 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I have not argued that women have no choice to resist.



We're in agreement, then - women choose their place in society.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Not, instead, from the "natural" or chosen dominance of men??? We do indeed have a lot of power then. 



Of course men have chosen to hold positions of power/authority; women have chosen to comply.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 9:07:18 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

it is not fair to see this as a battle of "just" the last decades. We are talking over centuries. Why do females accept this?


They didn't accept this, but if you were constantly pregnant from the time you were barely pubescent, carried fifteen pregnancies, only to cark it in your early thirties, you wouldn't be up for much of a fight either. Many had the opportunity to die earlier than this, in childbirth. Bah, it was their biological destiny. Right?

Women have been able to move forwards thanks to contraception and the legalisation of abortion in certain countries: the Pill is only a few decades old. Let's not forget the uproar when it was brought out either: how many men screamed bloody murder that it would fuck everything up for patriarchal society  ? And it did  . It was obvious that the liberation of women derived directly from family planning.

I have scoured through the WHO website for the latest figures, so I don't know how many millions of women are still subjected to unwanted pregancies worldwide... Gives you an idea as to why the glass ceiling is still thick - the majority of women is still underneath it, carrying babies.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/24/2008 9:14:25 AM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 9:10:33 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

As for the "hunter vs gatherer", humans cannot live on meat alone so the gatherer is just as important. As a female hunter I can tell you that gender, size and strength have nothing to do with being a good hunter, it takes brains to be able to track down your prey and kill it efficiently.


agree for nowadays....but we can't change history. MAinly males hunted then...different times..different places...different rules.

At work I love a fair mixture of males and females. It is a nightmare..to be just with females..and to be just with males...lol
The mixture of thoughts do a company well.


I don't think I've ever read a study that suggests that human beings lived primarily on meat. In fact I've seen many, many studies where the opposite is reported both in prehistory and early historical periods.

We, meaning modern Americans here cause I can't speak for other modern cultures, eat far more meat than has ever been consumed in the past.

In the past meat was very difficult to either catch or raise, it was a very limited resource for food whereas plant life, particular after agriculture begins, is more stable as a food source. In fact, contrary to popular ideas about carbs, I think most evidence suggests that carbs were the principle food for most human beings for most of human history.

As to who created agriculture? I honestly don't think that is within our grasp since the evidence is so spread out primarily in pre-historic times. My guess is that it developed slowly with the work of a lot of people in different places around the world depending on their needs and the environment. Records of land ownership are far removed from the development of agriculture so I'd be wary of using that to backtrack who developed any thing.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 3/24/2008 9:12:51 AM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 9:27:40 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		You know it's funny how different people look at things differently.

Where one may only see men in power, I see the potential of alot of women using the male figureheads. Throughout history there is documentation of very strong women that have been able to understand their limitations and work within, and around, them. Women that did this as mothers, wives, and even mistresses.

Granted these women were not the obvious leaders, yet I see great strength in their ability to recognise the best way to accomplish an end goal with the least amount of bullshit. Why waste alot of time and energy demanding a woman be voted leader when the women that can control the men, will lead from behind the scenes. Get more accomplished by not being the obvious leader. Let the figurehead take the shit being flung. Be able to slide out from behind that human shield and go on about her business.

Just another thought based upon historical facts.


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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 9:35:51 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I have not argued that women have no choice to resist.



quote:

We're in agreement, then - women choose their place in society.


Heeeeyyyyyyy Leapy McLeaperson! That's not a logical straight line. Does "not black" equal "white?" Why you doing that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Not, instead, from the "natural" or chosen dominance of men??? We do indeed have a lot of power then. 



quote:

Of course men have chosen to hold positions of power/authority; women have chosen to comply.


Maybe it's a chicken or the egg thing, however your phrasing seems to suggest male dominance is a response to choices women make; not proactive, but reactive:

quote:

Yes, the point of my post is to suggest women have chosen second class status for themselves by accepting being thought of as second class, and thinking of themselves as second class.


              

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 11:05:43 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I have not argued that women have no choice to resist.



quote:

We're in agreement, then - women choose their place in society.


Heeeeyyyyyyy Leapy McLeaperson! That's not a logical straight line. Does "not black" equal "white?" Why you doing that?



Ah yes...a bad habit of mine.......let's see if I can make amends....

Hmmmm......

a) You concede women are not without choice.

b) I suggest you agree with me - women have chosen their place.

c) You claim that's not in your thoughts.

The remaining option is "partial choice"; as I understand it, no such thing exists.

For clarity's sakes, the fact that men have conspired to claim positions of authority for themselves, does not negate the fact that women have chosen to accept this fate. The alternative view is this: men decide the fate of women, i.e. men own women. Assuming you don't agree with the alternative view, it follows women have chosen their fate. There may well be external pressures on women, but you choose to act on these pressures.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Maybe it's a chicken or the egg thing



Perhaps. I'd be amazed, though, were someone to argue against there being a disproportionate number of men in positions of authority and power.

To be fair, the balance is being redressed slowly but surely, and that's because the likes of the suffragettes realised they had a choice.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/24/2008 11:07:47 AM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 11:09:14 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
To be fair, the balance is being redressed slowly but surely, and that's because the likes of the suffragattes realised they had a choice.


OHHHHHHH gotta say something here, the suffragettes did bog all of the womans movement except give more foundation to mysoginistic theories that women are overly emotional, the suffragists helped bring the plight to light the suffragettes acted irrationally. Women did not get the vote because of them, if it werent for the war we probably wouldnt have got the vote for a long long long time. Women got the vote to pacify them after they were kicked out of their jobs on the mens return from war.


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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 11:38:16 AM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		I am not sure if the balance will be redressed...and if it is good. That doesn't mean I am not about equal chances, but their are more problems..which are already  there.
For example females getting babies at an to high age..and such.  KIds of 6 have mothers of 50+ now. At 6 that is not a prob, but when they get older....yes it will be.
Soemthings are meant to be in nature....we can argue about it..but when the hormones strike...males and females...just can follow.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 3/24/2008 12:06:04 PM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:02:34 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Women did not get the vote because of them, if it werent for the war we probably wouldnt have got the vote for a long long long time. Women got the vote to pacify them after they were kicked out of their jobs on the mens return from war.





That's not, exactly, historically, accurate.

Nineteenth Amendment
     Passed by Congress June 4, 1919. 
Ratified August 18, 1920.

Section 1: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. 
 



1920: On August 26, a constitutional amendment is adopted when the state of Tennessee ratifies it, granting full woman suffrage in all states of the United States. (For more on woman suffrage state-by-state, see the American Woman Suffrage Timeline.)

source link

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:10:25 PM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		Sorry, Im talking about it from an British point of view, I dont know anything about American History but I did British Female sufferage at uni, its generally considered that the government had to give the women somthing for all their work for the war effort and that was the vote.


< Message edited by colouredin -- 3/24/2008 12:13:08 PM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:12:53 PM   
HalloweenWhite


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Status: offline 		Not all Dominant Males think they're more dominant than My female counterpart, I've met plenty of very dominant women, I think that what you're refering to is very much a personal thing and not a "trend".

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:13:13 PM   
Justme696


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quote:

English Female sufferage


that is a classy way to talk about BDSM  :D   you fancy uni people

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:41:03 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
To be fair, the balance is being redressed slowly but surely, and that's because the likes of the suffragattes realised they had a choice.


OHHHHHHH gotta say something here, the suffragettes did bog all of the womans movement except give more foundation to mysoginistic theories that women are overly emotional, the suffragists helped bring the plight to light the suffragettes acted irrationally. Women did not get the vote because of them, if it werent for the war we probably wouldnt have got the vote for a long long long time. Women got the vote to pacify them after they were kicked out of their jobs on the mens return from war.



I don't think it would have been that long.

Most European countries gave women the vote after WWII for some of the reasons you list above perhaps -- that's really looking into motives though and I don't know of any evidence from those who controlled the government saying that was their primary motive.

American women got the vote a few years after WWI, well before many European countries. People, both men and women folks, had been working toward that goal for decades.

But to the quote you cited, it did raise a point in my mind that NorthernGent may have answered his own questions about why women didn't stand up earlier and demand other rights and responsibility: they didn't realize there were options.

The same reason why few enslaved groups raise up in mass to fight for their freedom or the lower classes raise up in mass for most of history: didn't realize there were other options.

If you are told from the time you are born "This is the way it is" topped with religious or cultural or ethnic or whatever justifications, why would you think things could or should be different? It is a very rare person who can imagine other ways of life when all they have been told and all they see is one way.

I took this amazing graduate course about revolutions for the past 300 years around the world. One thing we saw was that for the "little people" to stand up, a person from the upper class or at the very least the "upper middle class" had to stand up first. They were in a position to think about other options and they could help the lower classes see that. I think that's potentially true for many if not all cases where one group begins to stand up for more in a society.

I don't think it is correct to expect groups to see possibilities out of the blue.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 3/24/2008 12:47:24 PM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:45:16 PM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

American women got the vote a few years after WWI, well before many European countries. People, both men and women folks, had been working toward that goal for decades.



I would say that this was something we were against in Britian in that it was just the women, most men were very against women getting the vote for many reasons, and to be honest dont think that it would be productive to go to much into it. But it links to a point I was making earlier that for change its far better if both change their mindsets rather than one gender or race or whatever having to fight and struggle.


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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:47:34 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

it did raise a point in my mind that NorthernGent may have answered his own questions about why women didn't stand up earlier and demand other rights and responsibility: they didn't realize there were options.

The same reason why few enslaved groups raise up in mass to fight for their freedom or the lower classes raise up in mass for most of history: didn't realize there were other options.

If you are told from the time you are born "This is the way it is" topped with religious or cultural or ethnic or whatever justifications, why would you think things could or should be different? It is a very rare person who can imagine other ways of life when all they have been told and all they see is one way.



That pretty much sums up my opinion. In order to make use of choice, people have to realise they have choice.

It's clear from this thread that even in this day and age, some women believe their fate is sealed by external forces: namely, men.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/24/2008 12:49:17 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

American women got the vote a few years after WWI, well before many European countries. People, both men and women folks, had been working toward that goal for decades.



I would say that this was something we were against in Britian in that it was just the women, most men were very against women getting the vote for many reasons, and to be honest dont think that it would be productive to go to much into it. But it links to a point I was making earlier that for change its far better if both change their mindsets rather than one gender or race or whatever having to fight and struggle.



I'd strongly agree and go further and say that it is necessary that there is wide range of people behind any social change if it will be change at all.

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