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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 6:57:43 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

As for history, From the begining of time, its been equal, half the year ruled by a woman half the year ruled by a man. (The Great Mother The Great Father.)
The gods in greek and roman history if memory serves correct were split, what you wanted came from both gods and goddess's. As for kings have there not been queens.



Ah, no, I'd say that the Greek gods operated in a very patriarchal fashion modeled as they were about patriarchal Greek society. Were goddesses important? Of course, would they qualify as deities if they weren't? But important does not mean equal in authority or even in power.

The same for Greek women. Were they important? Damned right they were, but in every polis I can think of they did not hold an equal or even greater amount of public or family authority and power.

We need to be wary when we attempt to use religious practices, myths and legends to make claims about the rest of society. It is very possible to great religious power = great power all around but it is equally possible that it will not. Religion can either enforce the status quo or it can offer compensation for a lack of power and authority in other parts of life.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 7:01:15 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia

NG, re a comment you made to me about women and them being neglected in board rooms, etc.

I was a wife and mother for years. I CHOSE that for myself, no one forced me into, it was exactly what I wanted, not what was expected of me, by anyone. I was no little woman who stayed home and baked biscuits because that's the way it should be.

A dominant woman isn't the one in the high powered board meetings, wearing a mannish suit and brandishing a loaded briefcase. A strong woman is one who CHOOSES to live her life exactly as she wants to, without care for what she is expected to do by society. A dominant woman does all that and has men/women who live to serve her whilst she does whatever the hell she wants to do.


Just to keep us all thinking....

How easy was it for you to make that choice compared to how easy it would have been for your husband to make that choice?

If the social expectations and economic potential are not equal can the choices be seem as equal in nature?


I think there are complex social reasons why so few men stay at home. Howver since some do and that number is increasing (at least in the USA censor datas claims) it suggests that something other than biology or "gender/sex" determinate factors are at work now.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 9:01:52 AM   
hopelessfool


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Status: offline 		Tammy, what I meant was that what the Gods represented was split. Everyone aspired to things that both gods and godesses offered. Men didnt just want the gods and women didnt just want the goddess'. They needed both the gods and the goddess's to survive... And The Greeks were very mathriarchal (sp?) in my opinion,  a lot of the things people really wanted were from females. Wisdom, the hunt, growing things, familys (for the boys it would bring) All goddess's. But things evened out with Sun, and war, and death and zues.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 10:24:59 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

Tammy, what I meant was that what the Gods represented was split. Everyone aspired to things that both gods and godesses offered. Men didnt just want the gods and women didnt just want the goddess'. They needed both the gods and the goddess's to survive... And The Greeks were very mathriarchal (sp?) in my opinion, a lot of the things people really wanted were from females. Wisdom, the hunt, growing things, familys (for the boys it would bring) All goddess's. But things evened out with Sun, and war, and death and zues.


*raises eyebrows*

You sure you are talking historical ancient Greece? I happen to be an ancient historian, focus on Greece actually, and I can say with 100% it was no matriarchal in any sense of that word. Rarely, very rarely, a family might be matrilocal meaning leaving with or near the wife's family.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you but as most folks who've seen me on the site can attest to, history issues really are a pet peeve of mine. Professional issue perhaps.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 11:08:39 AM   
MidMichCowboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Now, as to what I THINK you meant, gender rather than species.

Thank you for correcting that.
Although my first wife isn't quite sure that I'm human, I do maintain the same DNA
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Neither is more dominant, individual are.

Throughout history, it hasn't been all males or females who were dominant, its been individuals.
When strength was the main criteria, the biggest, bad ass around shoved everyone around, men and women. If he wanted your woman, he took her. If he wanted your food, he took it.
Then there were the women who found a big strong man and manipulated him. Who was dominant there?
When strength (physical) was not the most important, men or women of exceptional ability rose to the top. Whether we saw them or not, these people of ability have always dominated. And in spite of what society thought, most everyone else was just cattle.
In our "enlightened" age, we are suppose to care about the worth of every individual. In areas that really matter, we do. In days past, Stephen Hawkins would have been left outside in the wilderness to die. Today, he leads us in to the future. Before her death, Benazir Bhutto lead a Muslim country. Things are changing and now those with ability and intellect can rise to the top, regardless of gender, race or circumstances. We are not all the way there yet, but we are making progress. But still, we have ... the sheep. Those who want to be led, who don't want to take responsibilities for keeping the world running. Those who keep their bigoted little ideas and maintain the facade of being in control of their lives. Just my rantings. :)

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 12:23:29 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia

I was a wife and mother for years. I CHOSE that for myself, no one forced me into, it was exactly what I wanted, not what was expected of me, by anyone. I was no little woman who stayed home and baked biscuits because that's the way it should be.



Fair enough, but why do women accept the notion that these two are mutually exclusive, i.e. you can't be an executive unless you play by the rules of no children? Who is setting these rules and who is going along with them? Why are women going along with them? Assuming career minded women would quite like to have children and quite like to reach the pinnacle of their profession, they must surely have accepted the rules set for them. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia

A strong woman is one who CHOOSES to live her life exactly as she wants to, without care for what she is expected to do by society.



Assuming we agree that women are under-represented in government and the boardroom, are you suggesting that women choose to be under-represented? If so, are women quite happy to watch men take the dominant positions in the business and political sphere?

I do not believe for one minute that women lack the ambition to run a country or large businesses.

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 12:32:39 PM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

If so, are women quite happy to watch men take the dominant positions in the business and political sphere?



Maybe the like dominating the domestic sphere? I know that for some women its all they want, why is it a value judgement about which is the most important sphere in which to dominate?

And there are women who are the heads of companies, and also women in important political areas (the cardiff Lib Dem mp is a young woman)


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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 12:59:25 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
1) The OP is concerned with the "male species"..


Er, the OP clearly failed Bio 101.

quote:

2) Some men will spend vast amounts on beauty products. That's irrelevant, here. I'm talking of that which we associate with women (by we, I mean society). By and large, these mundane pursuits are associated with women, and, by extension, this supports the notion that women are concerned with more trivial matters and are not best placed to take on positions of authority.


Ahh.....but you will note that personal and social values as to what is "trivial" and "mundane" vary markedly by historical period and culture of origin as well as gender.  In the 17th century in England, hair grooming and the art of caring for elaborate wigs was in no way trivial or mundane.  It took some centuries for long, elaborately coiffed wigs to shift from being primarily a male decoration to being primarily for females.  Go another dozen-odd centuries back to Egypt and it was even more crucial for males of rank to dress and decorate their hair and beards correctly.  Around the turn of the 1900's, male costume and hair presentation started to be significantly de-emphasized and the trend towards uniformity and stability peaked around the 1920's to more or less freeze current expectations for male dress.  Males are still largely wearing 1920's clothing and are no longer as concerned with elaborate personal grooming or with their hair. 

I do not argue that Homo sapiens males and females are wired in the same way either physically or neurobiologically; evolution and current scientific research says differently.  Our differences are not an arbitrary product of culture.  However the social and economic value placed on the priorities and optimal skill sets of each gender definitely are.  An excellent argument can be made in favor of the "gatherer" skill set significantly outperforming the "hunter" skill set in terms of adaptation to the demands of a high-tech, detail-oriented, communication-based work environment. 

quote:

In a nutshell, society places men in positions of authority; it follows, thus, society places value on mens' ability to accept the responsibility that comes with these roles (to the detriment of women).


While men are more likely to be wired for a competition/conflict/win/lose strategy, women are more likely to have the optimal skill set for a communication/negotiation/win/win "team player" strategy.  This can be seen as "not taking responsibility" by men who consistently think in win/lose terms rather than team player terms.  Neither strategy is inherently superior to the other, though one may be more effective than the other in a given situation.  The best leaders are the ones who can use both strategies as situationally required.


quote:

Ultimately, women who accept these values, set for them by society (i.e. men and women), are conspiring against themselves and deceiving themselves. And, women do accept these values - perhaps not in idea, but certainly in practice.


Ultimately to be truly a leader, truly a dominant force in your own as well as other people's lives, it is wise to discard the preconceptions of society and to develop your own style of leadership rather than mimicking an arbitrary "male" style.  A strong, dominant woman may well not have the same priorities or use the same strategies as a strong, dominant man - and that does not make her any less dominant, or any less effective at accomplishing the things she chooses.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 3/25/2008 1:00:24 PM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 6:43:16 PM   
Wickad


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Greetings,

A few points ...

1) the idea that we (humans) started our life as hunter/gatherers is debatable
2) the idea that we are mainly a species who thrives on carbohydrates rather than meat and fat is also debatable.

I'm not going to go into either of these points here as that would be hijacking this thread, I'm just offering up some food for thought.

We live in a patriarchal society.  What this means is that our society has evolved to serve stereotypical male ideals.  These ideals range from such things as physical capability equaling power to the perceived masculinity of the 'Top' position in the sexual act. 

Patriarchal society is not always run by men.  This type of society, though designed primarily for the benefit of men, is often policed by the very people it seeks to create dominion over.  This is usually done through social norms, religious beliefs, and, sometimes, literal rules (ie: laws). 

What is seen as a benefit changes from decade to decade and year to year.  It was once desirable to 'have' a robust woman as your wife.  This meant you were wealthy and could afford to feed her.  It also meant she would be good for breeding your sons.  Today, a robust woman is a sign of a man being pedestrian, not having adequate resources to 'keep' her thin, and not having the control over her to 'make' her conform to the latest standard of beauty.

Women (and other persons oppressed by this type of society (African Americans in the US)) are pressured from the time they are born to enforce and police this type of societal structure.  We all, on some level, conform to the 'rules' of this structure.  Men are perceived as the natural bread winners and women as the natural nurturers.  We have created myths about our pre-historic past in order to prop up this regime and we all buy into it because of the 'proofs' given.  How different our pre-history would look if we lived in a matriarchal society.

It is not men's fault that there is a glass ceiling.  It is not men's fault that women have more obstacles to overcome in order to receive half as much praise or recognition.  The truth of the matter is that the society we live in, and thus all of our tacit consent to it's myths and rules, is what is to blame.  As such, the structures of our society, and our very core beliefs need to be challenged.

But .....

This was not the topic of the OP, now was it - lol.

As our society is structured, men are the more 'naturally' dominant of the genders.  This has nothing to do with biology or is it in any way a reflection of what 'should be'.  I am merely recognizing the fact that our society sets women up to fail and men up to succeed.  After all, is not success at what you chose to do really the definitive expression of someone's dominance.

... and some women overcome all these obstacles and do exactly what they want.   One might almost think they were inherently more dominant.

Wickad

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/25/2008 8:02:42 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad
1) the idea that we (humans) started our life as hunter/gatherers is debatable


How would you characterize primates, if not as hunter/gatherers?  They certainly aren't agriculturalists.  It's a bit difficult to get food without hunting or gathering, if you don't have certain fairly sophisticated socioeconomic structures in place.  Early hominids didn't have them. 


quote:

2) the idea that we are mainly a species who thrives on carbohydrates rather than meat and fat is also debatable.


We're a highly adaptable species that thrives on quite a range of diets available in different environments.


quote:

... and some women overcome all these obstacles and do exactly what they want.   One might almost think they were inherently more dominant.


*chuckle*  Two points. 

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/26/2008 8:16:21 AM   
EXODUS1


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quote:

Tammy, what I meant was that what the Gods represented was split. Everyone aspired to things that both gods and godesses offered. Men didnt just want the gods and women didnt just want the goddess'. They needed both the gods and the goddess's to survive... And The Greeks were very mathriarchal (sp?) in my opinion,  a lot of the things people really wanted were from females. Wisdom, the hunt, growing things, familys (for the boys it would bring) All goddess's. But things evened out with Sun, and war, and death and zues.
Hopelessfool

 
How many Gods do you believe we have?
 
Exodus1

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/26/2008 9:04:42 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EXODUS1

quote:

Tammy, what I meant was that what the Gods represented was split. Everyone aspired to things that both gods and godesses offered. Men didnt just want the gods and women didnt just want the goddess'. They needed both the gods and the goddess's to survive... And The Greeks were very mathriarchal (sp?) in my opinion, a lot of the things people really wanted were from females. Wisdom, the hunt, growing things, familys (for the boys it would bring) All goddess's. But things evened out with Sun, and war, and death and zues.
Hopelessfool


How many Gods do you believe we have?

Exodus1


Why is that your business? How does that affect the discussion? hopelessfool's private religious or spiritual beliefs are her own bloody business unless you are interested in a relationship with her.

Plus she was talking about "history" not her personal beliefs for the most part.



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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/27/2008 10:45:36 PM   
MistyMenthal


Posts: 413
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Status: offline 		Ever see a woman fight a Grizzly?
My point entirely.
Answer Exactly...
 
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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 10:18:56 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal

Ever see a woman fight a Grizzly?
My point entirely.
Answer Exactly...
 
misty~~ 


yes  http://www.queenkong.com/mud-bio.htm
lol

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 10:33:54 AM   
domahpet


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Status: offline 		threw a wrench right in the middle of that, didnt ya justme

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 10:50:23 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I've never seen a man fight a grizzly either. In fact, I believe there was a stupid guy up in Alaska that  lost that battle a few years ago.........I will not mention the stupidity of the woman that followed him.

I wonder if the bear had heartburn after that buffet.


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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 10:52:21 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

threw a wrench right in the middle of that, didnt ya justme


lol it is just fun to throw things in google..and be suprised

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 11:03:56 AM   
Suzykeu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I've never seen a man fight a grizzly either. In fact, I believe there was a stupid guy up in Alaska that  lost that battle a few years ago.........I will not mention the stupidity of the woman that followed him.

I wonder if the bear had heartburn after that buffet.


Well, Troy Hurtubise is going to try. ^_^
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CzYw5-qdA


< Message edited by Suzykeu -- 3/28/2008 11:18:45 AM >

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 11:44:11 AM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistyMenthal

Ever see a woman fight a Grizzly?
My point entirely.
Answer Exactly...
 
misty~~ 


Fight, no.  That would be amazingly stupid for a human of either sex.  Manage, control and dominate flawlessly, yes.  There are currently more female than male animal wranglers in the zoo and wildlife industry, and damn good ones too. 

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RE: M/F Why do you Feel Your Stronger then the other? - 3/28/2008 12:42:03 PM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
There are currently more female than male animal wranglers in the zoo and wildlife industry, and damn good ones too. 


females like working with animals, females are cheaper work labour on average (in the same jobs)
there can be many reasons why one job is done by females and others by males.
doesn't make the job or person less then the other though

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