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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 11:07:25 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The ideological individualism of the US benefits big money, that is its sole raison d'etre. Ordinary Americans have bought a 'pig in a poke' because the cult of the individual has not given ordinary Americans any more liberty than other westerners but has put them at the mercy of big money which is what appears to govern America.


I disagree. I am an individual. In every regard, I am an "ordinary American". I run my own business, and I seek mainly to live my life in peace. I want mainly to be left alone. I am not at "the mercy" of big money. I make my living by transacting with other small businesses and the individuals who run them. I live debt free and am beholden to no man.

This is me. How then is the individual at the mercy of big money?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 11:20:55 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Surely big money affects us all, worldwide. Sub-prime being a fine example. The Banks lend to everyone. Someone buys a house and pays a construction guy to refurbish it. The money markets crash, in this case due to poor lending practices, and everyone suffers. The house owner, the construction worker, the wholesalers the construction worker dealt with.

Its just one big catastrophe passed down the line, all begun by poor regulations. Big business was lending money without worrying about safeguards, as they couldnt forsee a crash.

As for American failings, i doubt if they are any different from most Countries. I certainly didnt see any difference between the US and the UK, that could be classed as failings.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 2:02:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The ideological individualism of the US benefits big money, that is its sole raison d'etre. Ordinary Americans have bought a 'pig in a poke' because the cult of the individual has not given ordinary Americans any more liberty than other westerners but has put them at the mercy of big money which is what appears to govern America.


I disagree. I am an individual. In every regard, I am an "ordinary American". I run my own business, and I seek mainly to live my life in peace. I want mainly to be left alone. I am not at "the mercy" of big money. I make my living by transacting with other small businesses and the individuals who run them. I live debt free and am beholden to no man.

This is me. How then is the individual at the mercy of big money?


Look at the astronomical amounts of money needed for American politicians to get elected, much is from big money and I doubt big money treats its expenditure as charitable but expects something in return from the politicians it buys. Those politicians that rely on big money make the laws that rule your life and one thing is for sure, American laws are big  money friendly, not Joe Average friendly. Much of the money Americans spend on medical care doesn't pay for medical care but goes as profits for private health and insurance companies. The American  military industrial complex you pay for, benifits big money. The war in Iraq, paid for by you, benefits big money. One could go on and on. You might think big money isn't using you as a sucker because you feel it doesn't impinge on your life but every individual is a part of the collective, even the American billionaire and America capitalism favours the rich because they pay for American politics under the guise of the freedom of the individual and keeping regulations to protect the collective to a minimum. We are all individuals and members of a collective, no matter where our politics lay. We are responsible both to ourselves and the society in whcich we live. To pretend one is an individual alone is an illusion.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/24/2008 2:07:18 PM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 3:16:41 PM   
bipolarber


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Status: offline 		I don't agree, but it will depend on whom you ask. I talk to a lot of friends overseas, and their reaction was that we are all arrogant.

Most of us only know one language, and work to keep it that way.

We think we know what's best for the rest of the world, and will rape, pilliage and plunder until we get our way.

We're vampires. We suck up 90% of the resouces worldwide, and return pollution that's causing global warming.

(shrug) Like I said, it depends who you ask.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 3:28:43 PM   
TracyTaken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is not listening, being too busy thinking of what to say and not listening, not putting yourself in the other person's life/shoes/moccasins/98%I
 
 
agree? or not?


Not.  For Americans specifically, I would say our greatest failing is failing to recognize that we are nothing more than a part of humanity, and that behaving otherwise isn't good for us (or anyone else).

Humanity's greatest failing is probably the same though ...

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 3:53:37 PM   
Real0ne


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the greatest all time failing of americans is to let our civil servants become our masters and to add gas to the fire believe thats the way it ought to be!.

How about condemning people we know nothing about, american indians, then blacks, now muslims.

believing the tv.



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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 4:09:09 PM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		If that is how you choose to see the world, so be it. Suffice it to say I consider your stance erroneous.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 4:30:20 PM   
stella41b


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Status: offline 		I disagree.

I'd say the biggest American failing is the failure to understand, comprehend, or even accept something which isn't American as being just as valid as something American.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 6:54:39 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

is not listening, being too busy thinking of what to say and not listening, not putting yourself in the other person's life/shoes/moccasins.


agree? or not?


Not even in the remotest possible sense.

The greatest American failing surely is...not taking enough responsability for individual actions.

Everyone wants to sue, hand the keys in, take bankruptcy.

I'm stunned every day at people who, at 35, walk in to court with $50,000.00 worth of debt (and 35k worth of assets), and claim irretrievable inability to pay it.

The actual number doesn't make any difference at all...what matters is our collective ability to blame someone else for our own faults.

And to believe that we're absolutely correct in our assumptions.





< Message edited by Griswold -- 3/24/2008 6:55:26 PM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 6:58:51 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I'd say the biggest American failing is the failure to understand, comprehend, or even accept something which isn't American as being just as valid as something American.


Substitute just about any nationality and I suspect you have an equally valid statement.


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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:01:07 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Nations suck; I would like to live in a world where nations no longer exist.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:49:02 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Status: offline 		KittinSol and Bipolarber have it by the balls I think.

Arrogance. Individualism. Me, me, me...!

And religion is how they justify stuffing it down every else's throats: "You must do as me, me, me says because it is god's will."


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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:12:23 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Individualism. Me, me, me...!


Individualism only becomes me, me, me, when the people doing it, do not allow others the same as the wish for themselves.
 
k

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:12:58 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I can't believe I have to explain something so evident... if you raise children to think that "me" is always more important than "we" or "you", you're going to end up with a society that is full of individuals who will push through their personal agendas regardless of what others say or think, and even of the common good.



I agree and a large part of our problems today originate from families to some extent but more so...our so-called public leaders and advisors...counseling and preaching what ? 'Love thyself for if you can't love yourself no one else will.'  It is thinking of 'self' that gives us such as not only our 'political class' America's modern day aristocracy who whine about not having enough while living like princes and all of the rest of unabshed greed but...we get the young artists and their misogynism, self endulgence and self-worship.

Modern American soceity and to a large extent...just about the whole world now believes that over and above the law or politics...'me' is more important than society.

America is one of the least guilty of all nations if one is objective.

This takes some real consideration but America's greatest failing is it's culture of money creating by capitalists who are reptilian. crawling along the ground looking for more money which means more money for the paper-traders and ther speculators. This failing has created hostory's greatest division and concentration of wealth probably since the slaves built the pyramids.

America's great failing is the elimination of production, its transfer of wealth and distribution of debt.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/24/2008 8:22:09 PM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:16:57 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira
Individualism only becomes me, me, me, when the people doing it, do not allow others the same as the wish for themselves.


So, you have met the Bush family? How about the the rest of the upper 1%?


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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:31:33 PM   
petdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely big money affects us all, worldwide. Sub-prime being a fine example. The Banks lend to everyone. Someone buys a house and pays a construction guy to refurbish it. The money markets crash, in this case due to poor lending practices, and everyone suffers. The house owner, the construction worker, the wholesalers the construction worker dealt with.

Its just one big catastrophe passed down the line, all begun by poor regulations. Big business was lending money without worrying about safeguards, as they couldnt forsee a crash.


The people in charge saw the crash coming. You'd have to be an idiot not to. Would you loan your own money to someone with a documented history of not repaying their debts? Of course not. Now, loaning somebody else's money to a deadbeat in order to boost the numbers for a few quarters, run the company stock up, and cash out with a big bonus before the bill comes due? That's a whoooooole 'nother story.

What's caused the current mess is a lack of personal responsibility- allowing unscrupulous people to hide behind corporate entities, their lawyers, and legislation that frees them of the consequences of their actions. Sentence some of these corporate raiders to hard labor, digging ditches for $0.35/hour until they've repaid what they've stolen, and the game will change. Until then, it belongs to whoever has the highest cleverness:integrity ratio.


< Message edited by petdave -- 3/24/2008 8:33:31 PM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:36:32 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

So, you have met the Bush family? How about the the rest of the upper 1%?




Nope, but I’ve heard and seen enough to believe I am watching a re-make of the “Titanic”; and pulling her apart, isn’t going to patch the hole.
 
Individualism is beneficial, abuse of it is not.
 
Of course, that depends on which side of the fence you stand.
 
I am with the larger 99%, and it seems to me, the only way we're going to pull it back together; is to unite, by allowing everyone to be what ever they are, as long as they can do it responsibly.
 
I call it, incentive.
 
k

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:42:27 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Status: offline 		Meh.

Sometimes you look at a pile of shit and call it what it is.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:45:43 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Meh.

Sometimes you look at a pile of shit and call it what it is.


Yep, and then I take the time to spread it out and make it useful.
 
Ya know, so I don't start choking on it.
 
The Little Red Hen


< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 3/24/2008 8:46:03 PM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:46:41 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira
Individualism only becomes me, me, me, when the people doing it, do not allow others the same as the wish for themselves.


So, you have met the Bush family? How about the the rest of the upper 1%?




I havent read the thread yet.. but seeing this on the scroll Marquee caught my eye...

If you havent met the wankers ( ok.. most of them are wankers at least the TX. Branch... Jeb is an SOB but not nearly as bad as Dubbya.. I kinda like him.. he is smart.. but sneaky. Babs is one hell of a broad... but whooo she has a mouth on her. ) feel blessed.

Don't ask.. just don't. *chuckles*

Gwyn,
Back off to crawl into her hidie hole.  

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