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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

DS4Dummies,  you are reading this on a computer connected to the internet, a process made possible only by thousands of years of cooperation which led to the scientific and technological discoveries necessary to perform the task and financed by similar cooperation in terms of investment in education and infrastructure.  That's collectivism in my book.  Might be you're thinking of the "quaint" concept that those who do all the work should have some say in where the resources end up, instead of classes and cliques who'd rather they just accepted the "inevitable" and obeyed without question?

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col·lec·tiv·ism
n.   The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.

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co·op·er·a·tion
–noun
1.    an act or instance of working or acting together for a common purpose or benefit; joint action.
2.    more or less active assistance from a person, organization, etc.: We sought the cooperation of various civic leaders.
3.    willingness to cooperate: to indicate cooperation.
4.    Economics. the combination of persons for purposes of production, purchase, or distribution for their joint benefit: producers' cooperation; consumers' cooperation.
5.    Sociology. activity shared for mutual benefit.
6.    Ecology. mutually beneficial interaction among organisms living in a limited area.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112]

Further, I would argue that voluntary cooperation and collectivism are mutually exclusive.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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That statement proves you don't have a clue as to how natural selection works.

Please enlighten us.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's the desire to win that makes American culture so strident. It's not for nothing that they invented the term "loser" as an insult. Individuals think they're getting to the top of the heap by acquiring material goods, which isn't conducive to social dialogue. And you end up with lonely people on top of their little mountains of gadgets, using their school debating society techniques (my current pet peeve, with cheerleading) to tell the other guy alone on his pile that he's wrong and that they're right because they've got the lateset plasma television.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde. Knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112]

Further, I would argue that voluntary cooperation and collectivism are mutually exclusive.

I disagree.  Or if you prefer: I would contend that your position as stated is, in fact,  erroneous.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112]

Further, I would argue that voluntary cooperation and collectivism are mutually exclusive.

I disagree.  Or if you prefer: I would contend that your position as stated is, in fact,  erroneous.

Contend away.  It would not make you any less wrong. 

The logic is simple.  Collectivism is inherently coercive.  The individual man does not own, does not control, and therefore cannot choose for himself how resources should be utilized in a collective.  Collectivism precludes the possibility of the individual withdrawing from the collective, for to make such a choice requires supremacy of individual right and individual ownership of resources--both of which are categorically antithetical to the collective.  Thus "cooperation" within a collective is left as the only option, with no second option.

In order for any act to be voluntary, there must be a real capacity to refuse to commit the act.  Saying "yes" is not voluntary if there is not a real power to say "no".

Thus it is that voluntary cooperation is not possible within a collective.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Thus it is that voluntary cooperation is not possible within a collective.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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I'd say the biggest American failing is the failure to understand, comprehend, or even accept something which isn't American as being just as valid as something American.

Substitute just about any nationality and I suspect you have an equally valid statement.

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Merecats another species that survive by cooperation and the protection of young even if not a direct genetic line. Several species of crocodile protect none direct line offspring. There are endless species that survive and prosper by defending the apparent weak in their species. One assumes there is some benefit for thwe whole collective. Symbiotic relationships are another form of cooperation. The idea that the strongest individuals survive is not born out by the facts. In fact probably more mammals survive through none selfish cooperation that selfish individualism.

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Usually, the alpha pair reserves the right to mate and normally kills any young not its own, to ensure that its offspring has the best chance of survival. The dominant couple may also evict, or kick out the mothers of the offending offspring.

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Wolves acting unusually within the pack, such as epileptic pups or thrashing adults crippled by a trap or a gunshot, are usually killed by other members of their own pack

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Possibly, but most nations don't profess to having a national dream in which it appears perfectly possible that an apparent retard can not only become the democratically elected president of the country but who also is able to keep office.

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It's the degree of cooperation that's arguable: some argue socialism, others argue slavery, but unless you want to be a troglodyte who feasts on nothing but rats, isolated from the rest of humanity, partaking in collectivism is a choice you have to make. It's not that it's involuntary, but it's necessary for us to function as a specie.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Actually, this is America's greatest strength.  Bush is far from an exemplary President, but I would rather have a succession of such "retards" than to have leadership restricted to a certain ruling class or caste within society.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol
When did this fashion for comparing humanity to obscure species of mammals start? I think we should be told.

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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Actually, this is America's greatest strength.  Bush is far from an exemplary President, but I would rather have a succession of such "retards" than to have leadership restricted to a certain ruling class or caste within society.

Surely as the son of a former president and the brother of a governor and a senator, this is a little rich?  Do you seriously think the Texas frat boy got there entirely on merit?

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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Possibly, but most nations don't profess to having a national dream in which it appears perfectly possible that an apparent retard can not only become the democratically elected president of the country but who also is able to keep office.

Actually, this is America's greatest strength.  Bush is far from an exemplary President, but I would rather have a succession of such "retards" than to have leadership restricted to a certain ruling class or caste within society.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Man is a social animal.  We are genetically predispositioned to come together in voluntary associations for mutual benefit.  However, the history of man also shows us that man is quite capable of divorcing himself from one association and selecting another when he deems it in furtherance of his perceived best interest.   Within the definition of collectivism I have posted previously, that voluntary association is incompatible with collectivist thinking.

Cooperative thinking and collectivist thinking are two entirely different concepts.