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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 8:12:12 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What was this thread about again ?

Americans' biggest failings.

Failing to listen?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 8:20:21 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Are you prepared to argue that Bill Clinton and/or Barak Obama enjoyed priviledge to obtain their positions?

No. Are you? Don't forget, it was you who posited Son of a Bush as the everyman President - a laughable idea, given his background of PRIVILEGE.

Don't try your usual boring device of stating other's arguments for them; it clears threads, cl. Stick to what I wrote.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 10:54:47 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

No. Are you? Don't forget, it was you who posited Son of a Bush as the everyman President - a laughable idea, given his background of PRIVILEGE.

Don't try your usual boring device of stating other's arguments for them; it clears threads, cl. Stick to what I wrote.

*Yawn*
What I stated:

quote:

Bush is far from an exemplary President, but I would rather have a succession of such "retards" than to have leadership restricted to a certain ruling class or caste within society.

We can debate the merits and demerits of Bush and his Presidency all you like--in a different thread. However, nowhere did I even remotely comment on his origins.

What I stated and will restate as a courtesy to you is that it is better to have a succession of flawed Presidents than to narrow the field of whom may be President.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 10:58:03 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

This is not true. You define an extreme and then say it proves your point. The USA is a collective, a collective that is skewed towards favouring the rich at the expense of the poor but still a collective and you are a member of that collective.

quote:

col·lec·tiv·ism
n. The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.

The USA is not a collective.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 11:02:45 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

This is not true. You define an extreme and then say it proves your point. The USA is a collective, a collective that is skewed towards favouring the rich at the expense of the poor but still a collective and you are a member of that collective.

quote:

col·lec·tiv·ism
n. The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.

The USA is not a collective.

I guess that's why people fly so many national flags and so many uniforms are seen on American streets. Why it has a constitution and school children swear an oath of alligience each day.

Sounds pretty much like the USSR to me. Even my brother who has chosen to live in the US sees the irony.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 11:08:47 AM

RealityLicks

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Then there's the neo-mercantile tendency to protectionism in world markets...

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 3/25/2008 11:10:14 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 11:16:39 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Then in your terms there is no such thing as collectivist thinking since all collectivism, even the Chinese government is cooperative in nature or at least such time minds merge to think as one.

China has been transitioning from a collective, with centralized planning and control of the economy to a more market-oriented system since 1978. State control has been slow to disappear, however, and the lack of democratic political process to bolster private enterprise renders the validity of their market structures somewhat problematic.

China's retreat from the collective, along with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Communist Bloc, demonstrates the limits of what collectivism can accomplish.

After Tianmen Square, how China's government can said to be "cooperative" is quite the mystery to me. As recent events in Tibet reiterate, coercive fits far better.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 11:17:50 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I guess that's why people fly so many national flags and so many uniforms are seen on American streets. Why it has a constitution and school children swear an oath of alligience each day.

Those things make the US a nation, not a collective.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 11:25:55 AM

charmdpetKeira

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~fr~

From my prospective, it is possible to find individualism, in collectivism; the group only needs to find common ground.

However, that is not the problem we face; conformity is.

Edited to finish that thought: , that is why we must have both.

k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 3/25/2008 11:28:38 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 11:28:06 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

PS53 -

You're on the money as regards consumerism. The post-war boom in credit revolutionised society especially because working people hadn't had to handle money in that way before. However... Thatcher's sale of public housing, which inevitably led to all housing rising so massively in price is what is at the root of today's financial crisis. Bigger and bigger slices of income are now going on mortgage debt, leaving credit cards to pay for most else.

I agree with you that Thatcher`s policies had a detrimental effect on the housing market. My point to Meatclever was the the UK was a "me me me " society long before then. In the 60s and 70s everyone wanted the latest TV or electrical appliance, the latest car, holidays abroad. In the 80s and 90s house ownership was added to the mix. In my opinion things have worsened here in the last ten years. As for people wanting to emigrate, thats always been the case, especially for skilled workers heading for warmer climes.

Edited to fix quote

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 3/25/2008 11:31:27 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 12:06:19 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I guess that's why people fly so many national flags and so many uniforms are seen on American streets. Why it has a constitution and school children swear an oath of alligience each day.

Those things make the US a nation, not a collective.

I guess we might both be writing in English but we both speak different languages so this is pointless. A nation is and always has been a collective in my book, i.e. a collection of individuals, a collective body, an aggregate with a common cause or agenda.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 12:43:35 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I guess we might both be writing in English but we both speak different languages so this is pointless.

*snort*

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 12:46:47 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I guess we might both be writing in English but we both speak different languages so this is pointless.

Isn't that an Eddie Izzard line

?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 2:15:49 PM

Vendaval

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Hmm....I would say one of the more common human failings.

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