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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 9:06:46 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is not listening, being too busy thinking of what to say and not listening, not putting yourself in the other person's life/shoes/moccasins/98%I
 
 
agree? or not?


The fierce individualism that is elevated to virtue level isn't conducive to listen to what another person is saying; add to that the bloody school debating societies (Gawd! They should do away with those!) and you end up with a particuarly virulent strain of notlisteningtowhatotherpeoplesayitis.


I agree with you both.. and I would also add that our greatest sin is Pride.

Remember all those lessons of Pride goeth before a fall?

We were attacked on 9/11 and immediately we had "Pride of America" bumper stickers, US is #1, little American flags waving from every car... I did not wish to be a hipocrite and slap one on my ride. if I did not have a flag up before.. I did not put one up afterwords to join the throngs of trained monkeys doing it. I love my country... I have friends and family members who have fought and died surving this country. I do not need a bumper sticker to claim a false new found pride. It has always been there.

We teach our kids that if they are too lazy to study or work for things it is the school or the system being too hard on them. We teach them in sports that practicing no longer matters.. or doing your best and working at it.. after all "everyone is a winner" and gets a throphy. Wouldnt want to make anyone feel bad. Some schools are making it so you can not cut anyone from the team who tries out because it would hurt thier feelings. Again that huge sense of self intitlement... that will carry them through to adulthood where they will sure as hell *expect* to be further coddled and do thier damnedest to make sure it happens.

In the retail on service industries we see these horrible customers not follow the return policies.. or just act like an unmitigated ass to the clerks and then complain that "the customer is always right" When they didnt follow proceedure, didnt bother to keep thier reciept, or did something insanely stupid. Again this huge sense of intitlement makes them act like monsters to people just trying to do thier jobs. When ever I see one of these poor souls being abused and I determine it is just someone acting bratty I give them what for.. because my not working there.. but just being a consumer will not get me fired.. or them.. but might make the jack ass think for once.

We tend to be such snobs when it comes to world matters and think since we have helped some countires with thier crisis that the whole bloody world should drop to it's knees and blow us. get a grip. It is a very small world these days.. and our economy is bleak as hell.. and if you realize it or not... the Asian money markets owns our ass right now because of what the current admin has done. Yep.. we are in the Asian Pawn shop. So quit your bitching and moaning of well we have done all of this shit for everyone else they all owe us.. ya know.. we owe pleanty right now too.

Having self worth and a good self image is one thing.. being a snotty self intitled brat is another. We need to teach our children the differance.. and our nation needs to step back and take a look at what it means as well.

One leads by example.. not pretty words.

Gwyn

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 3/24/2008 9:16:06 PM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 9:20:00 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		The greatest failing of America; too many of us don’t believe in our own motto.
 
k

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 2:41:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

If that is how you choose to see the world, so be it. Suffice it to say I consider your stance erroneous.


That's your perrogative but I still say, the belief in the primacy of the individual over the collective is a naive belief and serves the strong at the expense of the weak by allowing the strong to exploit the weak.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 2:53:28 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely big money affects us all, worldwide. Sub-prime being a fine example. The Banks lend to everyone. Someone buys a house and pays a construction guy to refurbish it. The money markets crash, in this case due to poor lending practices, and everyone suffers. The house owner, the construction worker, the wholesalers the construction worker dealt with.

Its just one big catastrophe passed down the line, all begun by poor regulations. Big business was lending money without worrying about safeguards, as they couldnt forsee a crash.



The UK is far more exposed to current events in America because the UK since Thatcher has been modelling its economy on the US economy, encouraging growth through borrowing and consumer spending and house ownership, lowering job security and introducing short term contracts. There is a sort of economic cognitive disonnance going on between borrowing large amounts of money for consumer spending and having less job security. Every since the Thatcher Me, Me, Me revolution, Britain we are told is getting richer, yet the poor get poorer, the rich get richer and more and more social problems appear. Yet, Britain's European neighbours on the whole still out perform Britain in many respects, providing better education, health care, better transport infrastructure, more job security, less consumer borrowing and less social problems all round. There is  less and less difference between the US and Britain because Britain is copying the US economy and has embraced the cult of the individual itself, to the detriment of people's well being. Britons being the most disatisfied and over worked nation in western Europe for little return. It is not for nothing so many indigenous Britons are abandoning ship and emigrating to continental Europe and further afield. The encouragement of private greed and me, me, me, has created a rather ugly country.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/25/2008 2:58:21 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 3:41:55 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Do you really think Britain wasnt as you decribed it long before Thatcher came to office ? Consumerism as we know it started after ww2. Do you not know about Victorian times, when the rich were sending 11 year olds up chimneys and down mines, and when poor meant just that. I doubt whether it is as good on the continent for education and health either. Social unrest is also just as high in Germany and France, at least here asylum seeker hostels dont get burnt to the ground as in Germany. I`m suprised you think the "me me me" thinking doesnt operate across the channel.

The Labour party have done nothing in ten years to change Thatchers policies and if i remember it was Brown who made lending money easier. Selling of 60% of the Uk`s Gold reserve when prices were at a 20 year low will come back to haunt Brown. The economy has nothing to do with the state of the NHS, since Labours own figures show they have pumped in fortunes. The demise of the health service is in how its run.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 4:00:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Do you really think Britain wasnt as you decribed it long before Thatcher came to office ? Consumerism as we know it started after ww2. Do you not know about Victorian times, when the rich were sending 11 year olds up chimneys and down mines, and when poor meant just that. I doubt whether it is as good on the continent for education and health either. Social unrest is also just as high in Germany and France, at least here asylum seeker hostels dont get burnt to the ground as in Germany. I`m suprised you think the "me me me" thinking doesnt operate across the channel.

The Labour party have done nothing in ten years to change Thatchers policies and if i remember it was Brown who made lending money easier. Selling of 60% of the Uk`s Gold reserve when prices were at a 20 year low will come back to haunt Brown. The economy has nothing to do with the state of the NHS, since Labours own figures show they have pumped in fortunes. The demise of the health service is in how its run.


Before Thatcher there was more job security, less consumer borrowing to feed growth and the economy didn't rely on home ownership and people excessively borrowing on perceived growth rather than real growth. Britain was run more along the social democratic lines of our continental neighbours, who incidently didn't go through the wide scale destruction of heavy industries Britain did and the tories blamed on the world economy. I remember my first trip to France, I laughed at the trains. Now one laughs at Britains roads and trains. Just try to get around Britain, its a nightmare.

Yes, I do know about Victorian times which is why socialism was invented. It is people forgetting the brutally of laissez faire capitalism which is they reason they bought back into it under Thatcher.

I suggest you live in Germany and France and find out. I've lived in France for two years and Germany for three and I can vouch for better education, health and transport service than Britain. As for social unrest, what there is of it stems from people not wanting to take the route Britain took under Thatcher and wanting to protect a more humane and social cohesive society.

New Labour is just another capitalist party which has disowned any democratic socialist leanings and is now a party for the rich as the increasing wealth gap shows. As for the NHS, yes, the problem is how it is run, first the Tories and now Labour increwasing professional management at the expense of manaagement by health professionals which worked better.

I think the proof of how great Britain is is the amount of people queueing up to leave compared to have many other western Europeans are queueing up to leave their respective countries.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/25/2008 4:04:11 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 4:13:11 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

The greatest failing of America; too many of us don’t believe in our own motto.
 
k
Our Motto. Hmmmm....
"What, me Worry?"
"Im shah'Allah"
"Moe! Larry! Cheese!"
"Remember! The! Alamo!" or something like that.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 4:36:03 AM   
LadyHathor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

KittinSol and Bipolarber have it by the balls I think.

Arrogance. Individualism. Me, me, me...!

And religion is how they justify stuffing it down every else's throats: "You must do as me, me, me says because it is god's will."




I don't always agree with you SMC, but this time, I do and I agree with stella too---IMHO I believe the world as a whole has become me centric and the way many groups have tried to combat that is with religion--that in itself becomes divinely me centric--I am saved and you are not---as stella says, we here in America think if America didnt think of it first, it isn't worth the attention---geesus talk about me centric---I have to giggle at Americans who argue Britain with Brits!
 
even here, I have not seen one " wow that's interesting, let me go and think about that idea, that concept, that belief..."---its grab the club and beat the opposing ideas in to submission---
 
what we have here is a failure to communicate---ohh we are talking loud and long, but we are not communicating----
IMHO.
 
 
 

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:04:13 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

That's your perrogative but I still say, the belief in the primacy of the individual over the collective is a naive belief and serves the strong at the expense of the weak by allowing the strong to exploit the weak.


Perversely, that is the same criticism I would render about collectivism.


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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:27:17 AM   
mastervalentine


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Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		The greatest American failing in my opinion is that we, individually and collectively have fogotten who we are, and where we come from. We have no pride, only wealth and power that we've done nothing real to attain. The people who sacrificed, labored and toiled for their children are fading, and their children have no understanding of what it means to sacrifice, labor, or toil for something worthwhile, and greater than themselves.

Because we have no understanding of the hardship and sacrifice made to give us our rights and freedoms, we allow the corrupt, the uneducated, the biased and bigoted, the ignorant, and the coward to carve away our rights slowly under the guise of "protecting the people", rather than standing on the foundations of wise men, and standing by the words "Those who would trade a little freedom for a little security deserve neither, and will lose both." (Benjamin Franklin)

I could go on about what we've lost but... losing self ... losing perspective... I think is the most tragic thing America could ever do.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:41:45 AM   
DS4DUMMIES


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

If that is how you choose to see the world, so be it. Suffice it to say I consider your stance erroneous.


That's your perrogative but I still say, the belief in the primacy of the individual over the collective is a naive belief and serves the strong at the expense of the weak by allowing the strong to exploit the weak.


...and what is wrong with the strong exploiting the weak?  ...it's called "natural selection".

The best way to assure that the weak always remain so, is to coddle them and prevent them from learning the  lessons inspired by suffering. This is what liberals enjoy - creating a "dependent" constituency that runs and hides behind momma's apron every time they encounter a difficulty. This keeps "momma" and her apron in control all the time....which then is curiously, the ultimate exploitation of the weak by the only slightly less weak. It's the reason why our schools fail so miserably, because we want everyone to be "equal"....and so achievers are restrained so that the less intelligent don't feel bad about themselves. Collectivism is a quaint concept with no value in the real world. It has failed everywhere it has been promoted and tried. It flies in the face of Darwin....



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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:53:21 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

That's your perrogative but I still say, the belief in the primacy of the individual over the collective is a naive belief and serves the strong at the expense of the weak by allowing the strong to exploit the weak.


Perversely, that is the same criticism I would render about collectivism.



As I pointed out, you are a member of a collective whether you like it or not. Ask the Iraqis.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:54:50 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

If that is how you choose to see the world, so be it. Suffice it to say I consider your stance erroneous.


That's your perrogative but I still say, the belief in the primacy of the individual over the collective is a naive belief and serves the strong at the expense of the weak by allowing the strong to exploit the weak.


...and what is wrong with the strong exploiting the weak?  ...it's called "natural selection".

The best way to assure that the weak always remain so, is to coddle them and prevent them from learning the  lessons inspired by suffering. This is what liberals enjoy - creating a "dependent" constituency that runs and hides behind momma's apron every time they encounter a difficulty. This keeps "momma" and her apron in control all the time....which then is curiously, the ultimate exploitation of the weak by the only slightly less weak. It's the reason why our schools fail so miserably, because we want everyone to be "equal"....and so achievers are restrained so that the less intelligent don't feel bad about themselves. Collectivism is a quaint concept with no value in the real world. It has failed everywhere it has been promoted and tried. It flies in the face of Darwin....




That statement proves you don't have a clue as to how natural selection works.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:57:48 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		DS4Dummies,  you are reading this on a computer connected to the internet, a process made possible only by thousands of years of cooperation which led to the scientific and technological discoveries necessary to perform the task and financed by similar cooperation in terms of investment in education and infrastructure.  That's collectivism in my book.  Might be you're thinking of the "quaint" concept that those who do all the work should have some say in where the resources end up, instead of classes and cliques who'd rather they just accepted the "inevitable" and obeyed without question?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 5:59:29 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor
what we have here is a failure to communicate---ohh we are talking loud and long, but we are not communicating----


But if some of us are agreeing it can't be all bad. Maybe just mostly bad...

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 6:07:00 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		PS53 -

You're on the money as regards consumerism.  The post-war boom in credit revolutionised society especially because working people hadn't had to handle money in that way before.  However... Thatcher's sale of public housing, which inevitably led to all housing rising so massively in price is what is at the root of today's financial crisis.  Bigger and bigger slices of income are now going on mortgage debt, leaving credit cards to pay for most else.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 6:07:30 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

As I pointed out, you are a member of a collective whether you like it or not. Ask the Iraqis.


You keep making the assertion as if there is truth in repetition.


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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 6:08:58 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

That statement proves you don't have a clue as to how natural selection works.


Please enlighten us.


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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 6:41:07 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

But if some of us are agreeing it can't be all bad. Maybe just mostly bad...



It's all good if they agree on the truth; it's when people agree on something that's wrong that trouble starts.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/25/2008 6:57:14 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/25/2008 6:43:08 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

You keep making the assertion as if there is truth in repetition.



Now where have I seen that before?

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