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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 7:06:09 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Actually, you're coming across as rabid, Wolf, and MissM is rather calm and collected.

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 7:12:18 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		You repeatedly refer to emotional responses and the hurt feelings, whose exactly? Mine? I have no emotions invested either way. Perhaps you have something you need to share with us, Wolf... we can make the monsters go away, just leave a low wattage light on at bedtime and the world will seem a nicer place once your fears are alleviated. Perhaps admitting that you break the law was the emotional outpouring you've been wanting to rid yourself of for some time... however, would you be willing to turn yourself in to the authorities every time you do so? Of course not. But I guess that it's fine for you to break the law b/c, afterall, you're a legal citizen of the US.

People aren't perfect. We all do things we KNOW we shouldn't, we're fallible and I happen to think that ALL factors should be taken into consideration when people do find themselves on the wrong side of the law.
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Oh my what of the children?!!! Sorry won't fly with me. Just because it hurts someone feelings we should soften the truth? Make your extreme statements and indictments and prove how emotional and irrational you can be. In violation of the law makes you a criminal. I am a criminal every time I drive the interstate. See it doesn't hurt at all if you use a true statement, even on yourself.


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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 8:02:45 AM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
(Popeye) suggests that we break peoples legs,he suggests we burn down peoples houses,he suggests we shoot burglars and then put a knife in their hands out of one side of his mouth and out of the other side he spouts off about law and order when it comes to illegal aliens.  Do you find that sort of position to be honest?
thompson


I don't recall anyone suggesting his point (or for that matter, any more than 1% of his posts are) rational, use any known level of logic or common sense, or for that matter, appear to be the expressions of anyone with an IQ above a kumquat.

Just that they're honest and consistent.


< Message edited by Griswold -- 3/29/2008 8:56:35 AM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 8:48:40 AM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline 		well at least we're secure with the knowlegde that he is consistant with his violent tendancies ;)

< Message edited by domahpet -- 3/29/2008 8:49:13 AM >

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(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 9:01:52 AM   
pissdoll


Posts: 343
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline 		Congress has passed 7 amnesties for illegal aliens, starting in 1986.

1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens

2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens

3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994

4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America

5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti

6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens

7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens


http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html


(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 10:45:22 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

If her home meant that much to her, then why did she not address the issue before the authorities did? You cannot give a free pass on this, just because it includes the emotional issue of "children being seperated from their mother". That emotional issue occurs every day her in the US, by citizens and no one gets up in arms about it. This emotional issue should not be used as an excuse to disregard the law, but it should be an example that the laws need to be revised in conjunction with securing the border.


Inorder to attempt that she has to then report herself as being in the US illegally,  addressing the issue  does not mean that she will be given the right to remain in the country,  by trying to address on her own could have resulted in deportation.  Which would scare away most illegals from even attempting to try

Other factors to consider, this woman was bounced around by her parents never really obtaining a formal education, so she is not going to be able to understand  how the laws apply to her, even for those with good educations it is very difficult to understand and interpret, also would prevent her from knowing the channel she would have to go through to  sttempt to become a legal citizen  So that means she needs legal representation to help guide her through the process,  and working low income jobs struggling to support a bunch of children equals no money for extra's  such as hiring a lawyer, she is more worried about getting enough food on the table.


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Profile   Post #: 226
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 10:49:50 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You're being too reasonnable, Maya. People want to feel vindication; they don't give a fuck about fairness or unjust laws. They just want to hop on  the bandwagon of prejudice, it makes them feel better.

Why should anybody want this woman to leave the country where she has lived all of her life  is a sad indictment on their values as human beings.

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Profile   Post #: 227
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 11:36:19 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You're being too reasonnable, Maya. People want to feel vindication; they don't give a fuck about fairness or unjust laws. They just want to hop on  the bandwagon of prejudice, it makes them feel better.

Why should anybody want this woman to leave the country where she has lived all of her life  is a sad indictment on their values as human beings.


I find this statement to be counter productive, and a little too casual with opinions about total strangers. There is a lot of that going around here lately.
 
Truth be told, you really don't know for sure if those on the other side of this issue are looking for validation, being unfair, or practicing prejudice.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 12:06:55 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

quote:

If her home meant that much to her, then why did she not address the issue before the authorities did? You cannot give a free pass on this, just because it includes the emotional issue of "children being seperated from their mother". That emotional issue occurs every day her in the US, by citizens and no one gets up in arms about it. This emotional issue should not be used as an excuse to disregard the law, but it should be an example that the laws need to be revised in conjunction with securing the border.


Inorder to attempt that she has to then report herself as being in the US illegally,  addressing the issue  does not mean that she will be given the right to remain in the country,  by trying to address on her own could have resulted in deportation.  Which would scare away most illegals from even attempting to try

Other factors to consider, this woman was bounced around by her parents never really obtaining a formal education, so she is not going to be able to understand  how the laws apply to her, even for those with good educations it is very difficult to understand and interpret, also would prevent her from knowing the channel she would have to go through to  sttempt to become a legal citizen  So that means she needs legal representation to help guide her through the process,  and working low income jobs struggling to support a bunch of children equals no money for extra's  such as hiring a lawyer, she is more worried about getting enough food on the table.


Maya, I think I like you:)
Toook me seven years and a lot of shit to go thru to get my immgration stuff sorted out to get into Canada, and I only had 3 kids. With 8 small kids, a job, plus a likely ingrained "fear" of authority and little knowledge or resources.... her kids and  her job became the center of her reason to be....
Lucy

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 3/29/2008 12:07:33 PM >

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(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 12:15:18 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		If you're interested in fairness, how is it "fair" that the taxpayers get to support 8 new lives because some woman couldn't be bothered with birth-control?
And if we let her get away with it just 'cause she has children, that will say, "If you have children, break our laws all you want, no consequences!"
I also see little to no outcry about AMERICAN criminals who are sent away from their families...How is that "fair"?
And if we give FOREIGNS a pass on certain "inconvenient" laws, then since our own citizens are more valuable, what laws can THEY ignore?

Remember, one of our country's mottos was "E Pluribus Unum", roughly, "Out of many, ONE"...There's too much focus on the Pluribus, and not enough on the Unum!
America DOES need to take a page from other nations, from Australia on down, namely, a stricter attitude: "If you don't like it, LEAVE!"

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 1:19:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
(Popeye) suggests that we break peoples legs,he suggests we burn down peoples houses,he suggests we shoot burglars and then put a knife in their hands out of one side of his mouth and out of the other side he spouts off about law and order when it comes to illegal aliens.  Do you find that sort of position to be honest?
thompson


I don't recall anyone suggesting his point (or for that matter, any more than 1% of his posts are) rational, use any known level of logic or common sense, or for that matter, appear to be the expressions of anyone with an IQ above a kumquat.

Just that they're honest and consistent.



LOLOL, I love it when people do that!

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(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 1:31:09 PM   
Legman1


Posts: 25
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		Counterproductive?
Thats a laugh. Everybodies screwed here and no answers will be found.

The ignorant breeder cow mother.
The innocent children that most likely  wont see a better life adoption or not.
The taxpayers that get to foot the bill once again either way.

I'd have to advocate harsh punishment for those that hire ilegals.  Jail terms not fines and enforce them.
It's greed like that thats screwing up our economy

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 2:24:27 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I was not the one that had to start talking about extremes, like branding. Those kinds of comments are made to emotionally charge a discussion, not make it a rational one. Just as your comments below are meant to go after me personally, rather than address the issues of 1) The law must me maintained in a society that lives by a rule of law 2) If the law is not just then the people need to lobby for it to be changed 3) The borders must be secured for any revisions to mean anything, otherwise amnesty just means it is okay to break our laws if you can hide out long enough 4) There is obviously information missing, as they choose to seperate her from the children, rather than allow her to take them with her 5) While we put things off, it is the detrimental consequences that teach us to not do this in the future. To not suffer those negative consequences, is to remove a lesson that life is trying to teach her. 6) Speeding is a crime, almost everyone does it, that makes us a criminal. Words do not hurt that much and people should be taught that.

Maybe putting them as point will assist you in addressing them. I do not mention the children, because that is not the point of the problems with immigration, that is just fluff to get bleeding hearts to ignore the rule of law.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

You repeatedly refer to emotional responses and the hurt feelings, whose exactly? Mine? I have no emotions invested either way. Perhaps you have something you need to share with us, Wolf... we can make the monsters go away, just leave a low wattage light on at bedtime and the world will seem a nicer place once your fears are alleviated. Perhaps admitting that you break the law was the emotional outpouring you've been wanting to rid yourself of for some time... however, would you be willing to turn yourself in to the authorities every time you do so? Of course not. But I guess that it's fine for you to break the law b/c, afterall, you're a legal citizen of the US.

People aren't perfect. We all do things we KNOW we shouldn't, we're fallible and I happen to think that ALL factors should be taken into consideration when people do find themselves on the wrong side of the law.
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Oh my what of the children?!!! Sorry won't fly with me. Just because it hurts someone feelings we should soften the truth? Make your extreme statements and indictments and prove how emotional and irrational you can be. In violation of the law makes you a criminal. I am a criminal every time I drive the interstate. See it doesn't hurt at all if you use a true statement, even on yourself.



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(in reply to MissMorrigan)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 3:10:48 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Illegal this, illegal that, and all the outrage about it. Kinda funny, don'tcha think, when most of the folks on these bords, and off ( like your neighbors and mom and pop) routinely engage in sexual practices that are illegal in many if not most states. And I'm referring here to so called "vanilla" sex practices. For example, many states have laws against sodomy which they define not only as anal sex but also any kind of oral sex, etc..

As far as popeye being honest and consistent ( and I don't mean to single him out or bash him in ay way) honesty and consistency, while often admirable, are not always neccesarily so. For example, does any one doubt that George W. Bush has been honest and consistent his whole time in office ? I have no doubt, that boy Gearge  is sincere in his  views and beliefs, but honest doesn't make you right, do it ? And we all know the sonofabitch has been consistent as hell in his policies in Iraq and where has that gotten us and the rest of the world ?

Just sayin'




< Message edited by cjan -- 3/29/2008 3:13:00 PM >

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 3:16:54 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You're being too reasonnable, Maya. People want to feel vindication; they don't give a fuck about fairness or unjust laws. They just want to hop on  the bandwagon of prejudice, it makes them feel better.

Why should anybody want this woman to leave the country where she has lived all of her life  is a sad indictment on their values as human beings.


I find this statement to be counter productive, and a little too casual with opinions about total strangers. There is a lot of that going around here lately.
 
Truth be told, you really don't know for sure if those on the other side of this issue are looking for validation, being unfair, or practicing prejudice.


Really? See if they recognise themselves or not: I'm not going to mollycoddle anybody. If what they say comes across as offensive to me, I'll react accordingly.


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Profile   Post #: 235
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 3:20:07 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I do not mention the children, because that is not the point of the problems with immigration, that is just fluff  to get bleeding hearts to ignore the rule of law.



What an utterly charming sentiment.

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Profile   Post #: 236
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 4:13:43 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I honestly think the whole term 'illegal alien' should be recatergorised. I, personally, find it offensive and does a great injustice to many, such as the woman in the OP, who were brought to the US and other countries, as children.



I'm a "legal alien" in the US, and I don't particularly like that term either.

The name "alien" has for object to dehumanise a person - I'm not a citizen, I'm an "alien".

It's easier to treat an "alien" shittily than a human being. It's not for nothing that the aim of the term "alien" is to alienate. Terminology isn't innocent, and you pointed this out beautifully.




There are no "legal aliens." There are citizens, naturalized citizens, and then there are visitors. And then there are illegal aliens.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 4:25:01 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline 		I think everyone is forgetting one main thing regarding illegals. Since it's such a good lil anecdote I got in my e-mail long ago, I'll post the gist here:

"Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors.
I've done all the things you don't like to do.
I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters:
You are Required to let me stay in your house
You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are Required to Educate my kids
You are Required to Provide other benefits to me and to my family
(my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.

I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.

And what a deal it is for me!!!

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America"

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:04:36 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Really? See if they recognise themselves or not: I'm not going to mollycoddle anybody. If what they say comes across as offensive to me, I'll react accordingly.


You are moving the bar of course ... I don't think anyone has a problem with you finding something offensive, and saying so. That wasn't the point.
 
The point is, and remains ... the people here are total stranger to you. You, like me ... like everyone else here ... has no clue what is in the hearts and minds of total strangers.
 
No hearts and minds will ever be changed ... you will only get cheers from those that already agree with you. What I find counter productive, is the entrenchment caused by making insinuations about complete strangers, just because they happen to have a different view than you.
 
So ... I'm not going to mollycoddle anyone either. I want this issue solved in our nation, and I want it solved in a humanitarian way. People that use the kind of language like you used here ... and harmful to that goal.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:05:55 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I honestly think the whole term 'illegal alien' should be recatergorised. I, personally, find it offensive and does a great injustice to many, such as the woman in the OP, who were brought to the US and other countries, as children.



I'm a "legal alien" in the US, and I don't particularly like that term either.

The name "alien" has for object to dehumanise a person - I'm not a citizen, I'm an "alien".

It's easier to treat an "alien" shittily than a human being. It's not for nothing that the aim of the term "alien" is to alienate. Terminology isn't innocent, and you pointed this out beautifully.




There are no "legal aliens." There are citizens, naturalized citizens, and then there are visitors. And then there are illegal aliens.



Total and absolute bullshit. I know: I am a legal alien. I even have an alien number. Strange, isn't it?

Still working on getting that flying saucer to take off: know any good mechanic out there (one with legal tender to work, goes without saying - I wouldn't want to give one of those pesky illegals an opportunity for business :-p ) ?

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Profile   Post #: 240
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