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PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 12:08:35 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7315998.stm

I feel the defending pub owner has a valid point, also what has not been revealed in the news article is the fact that a few  feet from the establishment is a commemerative plaque on a wall celebrating the life of Hawkins, something which has been there for a good few years as the man in question used to live nearby.

What do others here think, a valid point by the race equality people, or political correctness gone mad?


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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 12:24:08 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Is this guy well known for fighting against the Spanish Armada? If this is just some obscure fellow who did a bunch of shady stuff and also just happened to fight the Spanish then I'd turn a pretty jaundiced eye on the renaming. However if this guy is, locally, a hero for fighting along side Nelson then that would change things quite a bit.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 12:56:03 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		The pub owner obviously needed to publicise his ailing business  .

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:04:50 PM   
QuietlySeeking


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Status: offline 		If we take the Racial Equality Council's (REC) advice, then we have to abandon the celebration of July 4th as almost every patriot in early American history owned slaves.

Would we have to abandon the celebration of any history prior to Abraham Lincoln who emancipated the slaves in the U.S in 1863? 

Would that mean that Greek history could not be taught because they kept slaves?


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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:07:05 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Huh, I don't know if you noticed that the pub in question is in Devon, in England. English England. It doesn't have many ramifications in the United States, as far as I know.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:09:49 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

If we take the Racial Equality Council's (REC) advice, then we have to abandon the celebration of July 4th as almost every patriot in early American history owned slaves.

Really? The Virginians certainly but the New Yorkers and the Bostonians? What about the virtually penniless rabble rouser in Philly? IIRC significantly less than half the signer of the Declaration held slaves.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:14:40 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Heres the info site on Hawkins and yes, he was well known at least my recollection from history surrounding the spanish armada and Plymouth and devon has many areas of interest regarding that period of history  man and machine......fascinating stuff, (Its one of my childhood passions), But  Nelson was a few years later:)
Lucy
Bloody hell Im losin my mind, I forgot to add the  link http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/sir-john-hawkins.htm



< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 3/28/2008 1:40:22 PM >

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:23:30 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Heres the info site on Hawkins and yes, he was well known at least my recollection from history surrounding the spanish armada and Plymouth and devon has many areas of interest regarding that period of history  man and machine......fascinating stuff, (Its one of my childhood passions), But  Nelson was a few years later:)
Lucy

Can't find the promised link in that post.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:24:55 PM   
QuietlySeeking


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Status: offline 		Ahhh, I suppose since I'm in the US (as are you) that we can't chime in?

Since I can't see a US thread without the Europeans giving opinions, now my examples don't count on UK threads.  Interesting kittenSol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, I don't know if you noticed that the pub in question is in Devon, in England. English England. It doesn't have many ramifications in the United States, as far as I know.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:30:12 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		The last paragraph in the BBC article says it all for me. If your friends in the race relations industry have a problem with slave trade then lets spread the blame about a bit. ie on everybody involved.

By the way DomKen I think Nelson was  the navigator flying a Sopwith Camel biplane in WW1.
http://www.aviation-history.com/sopwith/camel.htm

He is thought to have crashed not far from the spot where Glenn Miller went missing during the Korean War. Important note; this plane was designed to
accommodate the Jet engine but the Americans hadn't invented it yet.
Lets us down again they did.
The latest theory is that he wedged his trombone in his good eye then into the throttle while  he was stroking his joy stick, lost control of the plane and the rest is history.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/28/2008 1:39:36 PM >

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:30:41 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		It's ridiculous judging historical figures by today's moral values, they operated in a completely different world with a completely different set of values.

He did actually buy the slaves off black people so I'm assuming the erace equality council is proposing a boycott of black people too.

I jest of course.

That being said, many famous people don't live up to the values of their own time.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:30:46 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Yawn. Your comment sounded like you were extrapolating from the story as if it had taken place in the United States. Please tell me it's not a national habit  .

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:35:59 PM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
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Status: offline 		My apologies to those above the Mason-Dixon line who participated in the early years of this great country. 

Rephrase: Do we ignore the great accomplishments of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and their counterparts simply because they owned slaves? 

Personally, I believe this is just more PC...and perhaps a pub owner who wants to cash in on the controversy as kittenSol suggests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

If we take the Racial Equality Council's (REC) advice, then we have to abandon the celebration of July 4th as almost every patriot in early American history owned slaves.

Really? The Virginians certainly but the New Yorkers and the Bostonians? What about the virtually penniless rabble rouser in Philly? IIRC significantly less than half the signer of the Declaration held slaves.

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:42:01 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Sorry Ken, im not quite with it today, now Im feeling like a complete doofus
snicker
here it is again
http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/sir-john-hawkins.htm
Lucy

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:43:18 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		OMG Seeks, I just snorted coffeeee all over my damn monitor
Kiss me horatiooooooo or should that be hardy? man now im getting confused


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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:45:09 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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Yes, this is a story from a quiet part of the UK, but it is a story nevertheless, what is being discussed with this could be anywhere, so the invitation to participate in the thread is open to all, their nationality is not an issue.

To add further to my thread, what I find galling about this issue, is it is history, past history, not the present. History, a time when things were different, we cannot foist our modern beliefs on people from a different time period, ok, this century and a lot of the recent past century, but not four hundred odd years ago. If this time period can be held to account, why not other time periods, perhaps Britain should seek an apology from the Normans for the Norman conquest and it's aftermath, the Germans for the saxons, or even the Italians for what Rome did, it is just plain stupid.

History is there for us to learn from.



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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:45:16 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Somebody's a bit confused I think.
http://www.redhotjazz.com/Hawkins.html

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:50:55 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Why do you think the pub owner chose a name that he knew would churn out some controversy, hmmm? He could have called it "The Robert Falcon Scott", a famous Plymouth captain (just a suggestion). There! No controversy. Aaahh... but no press either...

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:52:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Why do you think the pub owner chose a name that he knew would churn out some controversy, hmmm? He could have called it "The Robert Falcon Scott", a famous Plymouth captain (just a suggestion). There! No controversy. Aaahh... but no press either...



Was the "Fighting Cock" a famous Plymouth captain?

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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/28/2008 1:53:47 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No idea, but have you heard of "The Boxing Rooster"?

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