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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:38:38 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

Too bad liberals dont believe this anymore...today its about handouts, bailouts, and what your country can do for you. Americans want a nanny state that will be there to hold their hands through life. That's the direction we are moving in. And that's just sad.


Cyberdude, get real, it is the right that get all the handouts. Fuck! We fight wars on behalve of capitalist welfare!

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:42:38 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Spare me the class warfare crap....

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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:43:33 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Spare me the class warfare crap....


I'm right though aren't I.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:45:00 PM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Settle down, kids.

XI


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This mod goes to eleven.

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:45:01 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  -- Spock of Vulcan

Later, cl


Now there's a good "source."

Actually, it's not a bad source.  However, it is not quite the moral proclamation  RL presents it as being.  The full quote is far from morally certain.
quote:


[On whether Kirk should assume command from Spock]
Spock: If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny; anything else is a waste of material.
Kirk: I would not presume to debate you.
Spock: That is wise. Were I to invoke logic, however, logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Kirk: Or the one.
Spock: You are my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and always shall be yours.

Far from settling any debate, Spock uses that statement to sidestep the debate entirely--and then contradicts himself by pledging eternal friendship.

Yes, I'm a fan of Star Trek, and not ashamed to say so.


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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 1:09:23 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Your beliefs are not without merit, but where you fall short is as follows:

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

individual liberty is sacrificed in the name of some ill-defined collective "good".



Individual liberty is no more tangible, and thus it follows no less ill-defined, as the collective good.

Actually, this is not true.  Individual liberty begins with articulation of the phrase "I want"--"I want".  For an individual to make such a statement, it is necessarily axiomatic.  "I" is atomic, "I" is individual.

A collective good must similarly begin with an articulation of "We want...."  However, inasmuch as any articulation is an individual act, this statement can never be presumed axiomatic, but must be proven with further statements.  "I" can state that "we want," but without support and justification that statement is inherently suspect, whereas the similar individual statement "I want" is not.

Thus, individual liberty is necessarily more definitive than any collective good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Yes, socialist thinking, being as it is dehumanizing thinking, is evil. 



Claiming socialist thinking to be "evil" smacks of the indoctrination suggested by RL.

You fail to see that what we have here are simply two ideas on how to organise people to achieve the essence of politics - harmony.

How have I failed to perceive that?  If I am vocal in opposition to one idea and forceful in advocating a different idea, I necessarily must be aware that there are competing ideas under discussion.  I merely reject one of those ideas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
According to your own post, you've come to believe that individual liberty is more tangible than the collective good. Regardless of your beliefs, one is no more a given or an illusion as the other.

You offer up no proof of this.  My rebuttal of your earlier statement stands as my challenge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Every belief you have stated in your post could be turned on its head, and countered with the excesses of the free market system.

No doubt that attempt will be made.  Such is the nature of debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
CL, I'll put this to you, you're unable to step out of your shoes and see political notions for what they are - they're simply ideas - rather, you've moved into the absolutism of believing a particular idea to be evil.

Ideas spawned the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution.

Ideas spawned the world's great religions.

Ideas can lead to war.

"Simply ideas"?  There are no such things.  Ideas are the foundations for all that we choose, and thus all that we do.   If our ideas are wrong, our choices will be wrong, and our actions will be wrong. 


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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 1:12:38 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Merc, I'm going to have to sign off in a minute but I'll just say that regarding everything from gov't fiscal policy to military action as welfare of one kind or another is certainly a novel analytical approach, I'll give you that.


Thanks! As I've stated I don't consider all welfare bad, personal or corporate. My definition doesn't change depending on whether I support the recipient or not. 

I too have enjoyed the exchange.

Now I have to go make some money and, by some people's definition, exploit somebody or something in the process. 

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 1:15:17 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

Too bad liberals dont believe this anymore...today its about handouts, bailouts, and what your country can do for you. Americans want a nanny state that will be there to hold their hands through life. That's the direction we are moving in. And that's just sad.


Ridiculous...You can't see beyond the end of your nose...

And just what is it that Conservatives believe?

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 1:46:47 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

And just what is it that Conservatives believe?'



I don't know what Cons believe in, but I know for sure that they don't believe in progress.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 2:05:28 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

Too bad liberals dont believe this anymore...today its about handouts, bailouts, and what your country can do for you. Americans want a nanny state that will be there to hold their hands through life. That's the direction we are moving in. And that's just sad.


Ridiculous...You can't see beyond the end of your nose...

And just what is it that Conservatives believe?


That if you work hard, you will accomplish your goals, and you live a better life. You can accomplish anything if you have the motivation and determination to accomplish it. This in turn creates a better, more productive nation and workforce. Conservatism believes in the individual's potential to succeed.

Liberalism does not promote this nor do liberals believe in this. Liberals believe the individual cannot succeed without the help of the group. So the healthier the group, the healthier the individual.

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 2:22:14 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:



Liberal

2. Somehow, it has turned into an insult, like the word conservative. Usually used as such by people who have never taken a political science class and don't know what the word means. Often used to describe "liberal media" despite the fact that most media outlets are owned by conservative corporations like ClearChannel, and the prevalence of conservative talk shows.

1. "He has a liberal attitude towards life"

2. "That gay homo is a liberal comunnisst pinnko! Limbaugh toled me so, and O'reailly agreez! Fox News Rulz, they so impartial in their support of everything Bush! Goddamn liberal media!



Urban Dictionary



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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 3:06:03 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Caitlyn, here's the proposition, if McCain wins I'll drive down to Texas and top you for a night and beat your Democratic ass!


Well, you needed to catch me a year or so back ... I'm so over being anyone's beater. I hang here for the political discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmfasWzdyHs&feature=related 

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I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 3:11:50 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I'm right though aren't I.


Yes.

But your punctuation skills are poor.



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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 3:27:29 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
CL, I'll put this to you, you're unable to step out of your shoes and see political notions for what they are - they're simply ideas - rather, you've moved into the absolutism of believing a particular idea to be evil.


It's worth pointing out that he also conflates otherwise unrelated ideas. For example, he conflates the idea of a "socialist" state with political structures that would be better described as "totalitarian dictatorships."

It's pointless to discuss those kinds of ideas with someone that can't grasp the differences between a variety of political ideologies.

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 4:53:30 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  -- Spock of Vulcan

Later, cl


Hmmmm. So........ Spock really should have been wearing one of those red shirts.......

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 4:58:08 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

kittin wrote:

I don't know what Cons believe in, but I know for sure that they don't believe in progress.



quote:

cyberdude wrote:

That if you work hard, you will accomplish your goals, and you live a better life. You can accomplish anything if you have the motivation and determination to accomplish it. This in turn creates a better, more productive nation and workforce. Conservatism believes in the individual's potential to succeed.

Liberalism does not promote this nor do liberals believe in this. Liberals believe the individual cannot succeed without the help of the group. So the healthier the group, the healthier the individual.


You are both wrong.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 5:35:12 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

You are both wrong.



Conservatives believe in mummification then?

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 5:39:43 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

You are both wrong.



Conservatives believe in mummification then?


*laughing, if you mean what I think*

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 5:43:05 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Smaller government, responsible fiscal spending, individual liberties.

The republican party started to take some turns against these fundamentals a long while back, and is why I became an independent. I can actually vote for a politician that I disagree with a few of his programs, if I see and believe that the politician has some integrity.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

And just what is it that Conservatives believe?'



I don't know what Cons believe in, but I know for sure that they don't believe in progress.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 5:53:58 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Smaller government, responsible fiscal spending, individual liberties.


What Republican ever supported such ideas?

Sounds all bait and switch to me...

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Profile   Post #: 140
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