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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:47:08 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Imagine if all these Democrats were urging Obama to drop out, if he were to fall a little behind in the delegate count. "For the good of the party". What an uproar that would cause... 

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:50:01 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Rationalizing that her failure represents that the US isn't ready for a female President serves to perpetuate prejudicial stereotypes.

Is it also assumed that if Senator Obama loses in the general election it had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with his race? Should it be assumed that everyone supporting him is doing so because of his race or in spite of his race? That requires a racist mentality.



One thing for certain: should McCain win, it will be because he's an old white dude.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 10:54:56 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"I hope not.  I'm quite partial to motorways, street lighting, policing, schools and other "comforts" of being a "socialist" and want to live among others who share their benefits."


Why would you think that roads, streetlights, police or schools have anything to do with Socialism?  What do you think Socialism means?  All of the things things you listed preceeded Socialism. 

Universal education was first formally created in Feudal Japan, but it really goes back to the Theocratic God/Kings (everyone had to be educated as to why the King was actually a God) .  The rest,  Roads, Police and Street lights, go back to the dawn of civilization and are found in every cohesive Human Society, all three were covered in the Code of Hamurabi.


Thanks for the history lesson, such as it was.  Public services paid for by a monarch, were subject to his gift, not a right of the citizenry and in any case were really paid for by the people with said monarch acting as a central adminstrator.  Later examples you've quoted were also gifts but by private concerns. 

Taking the rights to these services into public hands and ensuring that all contribute for the common good is a perfect example of communitarianism which evolved into what we'd call socialism in modern society.  The difference?  If my street light breaks, I don't go and ask King Hammurabi for a new one, I call the local council and demand it by right.

quote:


Your not one of those people who go "Socialism ---Society---- Duh" are you?


What does "duh" mean?

quote:


BTW Celtic lord cited a dictionary definition of Socialism, so to claim he is just saying because he says so is a false accusation on your part.



Wrong. He went back and edited his post with the link after I had called him on his statement.  Why not wait for him to come back and explain it himself?

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:12:51 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I really hope you don't believe this tripe. The defeatist position for your own gender is disingenuous. The failure of the Clinton campaign is fundamentally her politics, her platform, and her integrity. Rationalizing that her failure represents that the US isn't ready for a female President serves to perpetuate prejudicial stereotypes. 


I don't have a position for my gender, and I don't want one. I have a position for me ... every day. I don't see a man, running against a woman. I see two candidates running for office that have nearly identical postions on most major issues. One of these candidates has a very defined plan, and the other represents a good bit of guess work. I see two candidates advocating healthcare reform, which I think we need ... one of which insists that we all participate, and one that does not. I think the former is right and the latter is wrong. I see a candidate that is tied into a system that has proven through battle that they can work with a Republican Congress to keep budgets balanced ... and yes, I will give a lot of credit to said Congress for that. I see another with a promise ... and "yes we can."
 
That said, I'm not the one that is trying to brand the candidate I support as harmful to the party, because that candidate is willing to fight it out ... and let the best man win, so to speak. It's not me making this a gender issue. I care not about gender, or color. I don't care if my candidate is from Mars, if they are the one I think is the best choice.
 
But ... when you talk to people, the anger is real. If you sit in a room and discuss politics with ten people ... the anti-choice based on gender is real, not imagined. You have the right to think that is tripe ... and I have the right to think you are wrong.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 4/4/2008 11:14:23 AM >

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:22:47 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Wrong. He went back and edited his post with the link after I had called him on his statement. Why not wait for him to come back and explain it himself?

Oh, wow, I used the edit feature.  I'm so busted....

*snort*


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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:24:32 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Caitlyn, here's the proposition, if McCain wins I'll drive down to Texas and top you for a night and beat your Democratic ass!
If Hillary or Obama wins I'll drive down to Texas and you can top me for a night and beat my ass for all the things I've said that have pissed you off.
Might as well make the election "interesting."

P.S. I bought a new cane that's made from "Lexan" a really hard plastic that would really *hurt!*

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/4/2008 11:30:43 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:25:36 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Well, it is rather naughty to go back and edit a post sneakily to cover up an error/mistake/fuckup after another posted pointed it out.

Just saying...

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:33:48 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Our foreign policy is determined by our national and economic interests....if you cant even see that...Im not even going to bother go any further with this arguement.

That's like the first lesson of any international relations course.



So then what you must be saying is that no president is capable of shifting or altering where our national and economic interests might lie......Care to go further with this argument?

Check and mate....It's all so easy with you....Let's just make this easy in the future for the both of us...When I say "jump" you just simply respond "how high."...lol.


And how exactly do you think Obama, the savior of America, will shift economic and national interest from the mid-east? We LIVE on oil! And even if our energy policy changes it will take DECADES for it to change our foreign policy. It took Brazil 30 years to get off foreign dependance for energy. You think we can do it by flipping a switch and electing a quasi-communist to the White House? Get real. And get your head out of the clouds.
Obama pulls out of the mid-east and Iraq goes into Civil War we will be paying a forture to the oil companies. We dont have price caps. We cant control the world oil market. We will go into a deep depression as the cost of shipping goods increases astronomically.

Go ahead....keep living that fantasy of yours that Obama is going to bring world peace. Because when he is elected and we are still stuck in Iraq 2 years from now....dont say I didn't warn you. When he says he's pulling out of the mid-east....The man is lying through his teeth! I'm telling you that right now! I know how these politicians think and talk. Obama is no different. He is as crooked as the rest of them.


Did I mention Obama in any way shape or form in my response to you? I was just pointing out, once again, how your posts lack insight.

Just like in any Presidential election it is kind of a wait and see deal...If elected will Obama be as shitty as his predecessors? Who knows?...I initially thought he was going to win easily. Now I am not so confident.

Will he end the war...Hopefully. Does he strike me as the type of individual to use better judgment than the current guy...He really couldn't be much worse....Is this an endorsement for Obama? I don't know...The guy just strikes me as being different....And at this point I'll take different over the status quo. Hopefully the guy wins.


< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/4/2008 11:34:18 AM >

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:45:35 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		You are busted.

That is the order of things.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 11:45:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

You'd have a hard time convincing people across Europe, America and the world that they had turned everything over to the government, especially in light of the democratic ideal being exported at present in Iraq.
Another 'con job', but not one so obvious. Search the threads and you'll see few, if any, representations that "democratic ideals" are the desired result or cause of Iraq. If you do find any they will be coming from the side in opposition to yours.

The largest form of 'corporate welfare' is war. Not many individuals are buying fighter jets. If you and the people of Europe want to be selectively naive or forgetful when their position doesn't fit the debate it makes debate impossible. 

quote:

that innocent people should suffer as a result.
Who are the "innocent people"?

To bail out the banking industry they created a victim to con people into believing it isn't corporate welfare. You, obviously, are a believer.

However, these "victims" made the decision to buy what they couldn't and can't afford. This corporate welfare will make other corporate decisions down the road put 'government bail-out' as a line item on their business plans and worst case projections. I don't support that - you do. Which position would support the next requirement to bail out an industry? If it doesn't impact you directly or you don't think its a worthy cause will you be against the initiative?

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:10:39 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Merc, I'm going to have to sign off in a minute but I'll just say that regarding everything from gov't fiscal policy to military action as welfare of one kind or another is certainly a novel analytical approach, I'll give you that.

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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:12:03 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I could give you my opinion on coarse fishing but since I know nothing about it, it would be foolish to do so.  All he has to do is write why he holds his views - and isn't that what these boards are about, too?

Why do I hold these views?

Simple. 

I believe in individual liberty. 
I believe, to paraphrase Ben Franklin, that trading liberty for safety results in neither.
I believe that relying on someone else to bail me out when I screw up weakens me.
I believe that the excesses of the Reign of Terror (French Revolution), Stalin's famines,  Mao's Cultural Revolution, among others, are the inevitable result when individual liberty is sacrificed in the name of some ill-defined collective "good".
I believe that surrendering personal liberty is the same as surrendering humanity.

I have come to believe this because too often I have seen good people broken for the sake of some collective good.  I have seen good colleagues laid off with the flimsy justification that they would be better able to find new employment than others--they were sacrificed not for any shortcoming of theirs, but to compensate for the shortcomings of others.  I have been harassed by police because I seemed "out of place", either because of my manner of dress or my mode of transportation.

For all your gyrations and straw man arguments, you cannot evade the simple reality that socialism necessarily invalidates individual thought and individual expression.  The statement "I want" is deemed pathetic and inadequate to the socialist, because individual wants are derogated in favor of some illusory collective "want".

Obama and Clinton believe that individual effort matters not, individual want matters not, that we are dependent upon the munificence of "society" for all bounty in our lives.  Their policies and policy statements reflect this.  They forgive the insolvent mortgage holder for not managing their finances more astutely, and villify the banker who did business with said mortgage holder.  They believe my money should be used to pay for another person's healthcare, even as they would restrict my own power to choose what is best for my health and well being.

Yes, socialist thinking, being as it is dehumanizing thinking, is evil.  It is more than sufficient to disqualify both Obama and Clinton from any position of leadership.  Quite frankly, they are not even competent to sit in the Senate, but that judgement is left to the voters they pretend to care about.




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RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:14:21 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  -- Spock of Vulcan

Later, cl

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:19:34 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

You are busted.

That is the order of things.

*yawn*


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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:20:57 PM   
MasterHypnotist


Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		What I have most "enjoyed" during this primary process is that Obama and/or important party members speaking in his favor, openly comment or complain about Clinton ruthlessness and disregard for facts inconvenient to her and her freedom of fabrication. Now a large number, almost a majority of Democrats, consider it possible that HRC is a narcistic congenital liar who will shape or create whatever rhetoric or history is needed for her benefit at the time, even when it conflicts with recorded events.

So it is obvious, Senator Barack Obama is a deep, sleeper cell plant of the vast right-wing conspiracy!

I believe HRC would take the VP spot if it were offered to her by nominee Obama. Remember Senator Ted Kennedy's possibly prophetic words as he campaigned on Obama's behalf in New England (Connecticut?) (and if you can find the video, watch Obama's face and actions in the background as he waits to speak), "I want you to do for Barack Obama, what you did for Jack and Bobbie Kennedy!" Question: How many inconvenient people died during the first Clinton administration, and how many others went to and stayed in jail rather than give honest testimony in court about Clinton affairs?

Good advice for Obama: 1) Stay away from windows and balconies, 2) Beware of Secret Service agents with ties to previous Clinton details, 3) For your family's sake, keep your life insurance paid up, 4) Anyone but Hillary for VP.

Who do I want? Hell, I'm still pining for Perot, Elizabeth Dole, Alan Keyes, and still consider Nader more righteous than anyone I've seen on the final ballot. My preferrences are so diverse and under the radar it's pathetic.

MH


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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:25:12 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Well, it is rather naughty to go back and edit a post sneakily to cover up an error/mistake/fuckup after another posted pointed it out.

Just saying...

Then look at the timestamps.  I couldn't possibly have been responding to his comment.  It wasn't posted yet.


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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:26:33 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  -- Spock of Vulcan

Later, cl


Now there's a good "source."

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:31:06 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Your beliefs are not without merit, but where you fall short is as follows:

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

individual liberty is sacrificed in the name of some ill-defined collective "good".



Individual liberty is no more tangible, and thus it follows no less ill-defined, as the collective good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Yes, socialist thinking, being as it is dehumanizing thinking, is evil. 



Claiming socialist thinking to be "evil" smacks of the indoctrination suggested by RL.

You fail to see that what we have here are simply two ideas on how to organise people to achieve the essence of politics - harmony.

According to your own post, you've come to believe that individual liberty is more tangible than the collective good. Regardless of your beliefs, one is no more a given or an illusion as the other.

Every belief you have stated in your post could be turned on its head, and countered with the excesses of the free market system.

CL, I'll put this to you, you're unable to step out of your shoes and see political notions for what they are - they're simply ideas - rather, you've moved into the absolutism of believing a particular idea to be evil.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:34:45 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The American Induian wars justifies the slaughter, in your mind, of tens of millions of Ukranians and Chinese by Soviet and Chinese communists?

Really, for your "comparison" to work, wouldn't the U.S. Giovernment have had to deliberately starve half of the United States in this current century?

And "personal iberty" killed people?

Really?

Weird.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
What you wrote is nonsense. Personal liberty killed something like 10 million native Americans.

Wasn't it Ulyses Grant that had a programme of starving the praire indians to get them off US real estate?

Universal sufferage has only been around for abouyt 100 years and free and democratic countries have managed to do their fair share of slaughtering.



I'm just pointing out that celticlord was wrong to suggest only his demon socialist dictatorships slaughter people, liberal democracies do too.

You like putting words into someone's mouth to prove your point, especially when you have no reply of substance. I pointed out the Indian war and Grant's policy of starving the plains Indians of their land to illustrate so called liberal countries slaughter innocent people too. I know its not very nice for people who think they live in decent countries to face up to the fact their country have slaughtered people too. I would ahve used a different example if celticlord was a different national, most liberal countries have commited similar crimes.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/4/2008 12:36:45 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: "Obama Can't Win"; Hillary Clinton - 4/4/2008 12:35:13 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

Too bad liberals dont believe this anymore...today its about handouts, bailouts, and what your country can do for you. Americans want a nanny state that will be there to hold their hands through life. That's the direction we are moving in. And that's just sad.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 120
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