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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 8:32:57 AM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: noirceuil
Only if your attitude is that it is perfectly natural to live in the wild west.  A different culture might say that the ultimate civil right is to live in a peaceful, orderly society where everyone and his mother does not have a gun so everyone and his mother does not need a gun.  I know that sounds ridiculously naive to you, but where I live, it actually works rather well.

I thought Chuck Heston's finest and most natural performance was in "Bowling for Columbine".  Nicely understated compared to his Biblical epics.



"Yawn". yet another foreigner passing judgement on the internal workings of the U.S.

Mikey Moore loves you too.
Aren't we ALL foreign...to someone?  i mean. how would you like it if someone declared, concerning your post, "Yawn, yet another American xenophobe..." Glass houses, being what they are, and all.....

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 8:40:16 AM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: noirceuil
I thought Chuck Heston's finest and most natural performance was in "Bowling for Columbine".  Nicely understated compared to his Biblical epics.


He was great in that! I think it was his most memorable performance...though I doubt if he remembered it himself.

I don't see what the big deal is. A lot of actors showed great promise early in their careers then cheesed out later. He was a great actor in the same sense that a Big Mac is a fine meal.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 9:03:28 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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quote:

ORIGINAL: noirceuil

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

The right to defend yourself is the ultimate civil right. 

Only if your attitude is that it is perfectly natural to live in the wild west.  A different culture might say that the ultimate civil right is to live in a peaceful, orderly society where everyone and his mother does not have a gun so everyone and his mother does not need a gun.  I know that sounds ridiculously naive to you, but where I live, it actually works rather well.

I thought Chuck Heston's finest and most natural performance was in "Bowling for Columbine".  Nicely understated compared to his Biblical epics.



I am of the "OLD West" state of mind.." you fuck with me or mine a load of double 00 goes in your ass...There are more of us then  you may think....

< Message edited by BOUNTYHUNTER -- 4/6/2008 9:04:40 AM >


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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 9:41:18 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Only if your attitude is that it is perfectly natural to live in the wild west.  A different culture might say that the ultimate civil right is to live in a peaceful, orderly society where everyone and his mother does not have a gun so everyone and his mother does not need a gun.  I know that sounds ridiculously naive to you, but where I live, it actually works rather well.

I thought Chuck Heston's finest and most natural performance was in "Bowling for Columbine".  Nicely understated compared to his Biblical epics.


Yes I believe you are incredibly naive if you think you are immune to violence in Canada because of a law.  Statistics show that violence is on the rise in Canada, just like it's on the rise in lots of western countries with strict gun control laws. 

You think his finest performance was in 'Blowling for Columbine' and that's fine.  Michael Moore's films are nothing but fiction.  Mike's motto is, "You can have my sandwich when you pry it from my bloated, fat fingers." 

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 11:49:16 AM   
caitlyn


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Why even respond?
 
A post mocking the newly deceased to promote a political agenda in a country you don't even live in, on your first post on this forum ... somewhat speaks, and responds for itself.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 12:01:51 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Why even respond?
 
A post mocking the newly deceased to promote a political agenda in a country you don't even live in, on your first post on this forum ... somewhat speaks, and responds for itself.


Very true.  I just feel obligated to respond to anyone that puts my words in quotes.  I'm obsessive-compulsive I guess.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 1:14:57 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

quote:

ORIGINAL: noirceuil

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

The right to defend yourself is the ultimate civil right. 

Only if your attitude is that it is perfectly natural to live in the wild west.  A different culture might say that the ultimate civil right is to live in a peaceful, orderly society where everyone and his mother does not have a gun so everyone and his mother does not need a gun.  I know that sounds ridiculously naive to you, but where I live, it actually works rather well.

I thought Chuck Heston's finest and most natural performance was in "Bowling for Columbine".  Nicely understated compared to his Biblical epics.



I am of the "OLD West" state of mind.." you fuck with me or mine a load of double 00 goes in your ass...There are more of us then  you may think....


What a lovely sentiment.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 1:19:01 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Why even respond?
 
A post mocking the newly deceased to promote a political agenda in a country you don't even live in, on your first post on this forum ... somewhat speaks, and responds for itself.


Time to chill. Heston was a public figure, it's absolutely fine to mock famous people, dead or alive. It was his time to die. Many don't agree he was a great actor. Etcaetera.

Another important thing: these forums aren't exclusively American. We all have a voice here, remember? Everybody comments on whichever part of the world they wish to, from my knowledge of these fora  .



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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 2:22:00 PM   
caitlyn


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I never claimed there was anything wrong with any of this, or insinuated that people don't have the right to say it. I simply pointed out that it both speaks and responds for itself. If it speaks to you as acceptable behavior, so be it. If it speaks to someone else as something somewhat less, thats fine too. The wording was specific, and intentional.
 
Go get  'em ... tiger.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 2:46:13 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Go get  'em ... tiger.



I will, since you won't. By the way, you still have a speck of dust in your eye, babe.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 2:55:20 PM   
christine1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER


I am of the "OLD West" state of mind.." you fuck with me or mine a load of double 00 goes in your ass...There are more of us then  you may think....


rofl Bounty, just one of the many reasons i like you so much!

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 3:09:17 PM   
bipolarber


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I remember a great interview he did for an old magazine called "Fantastic Films." (Now called "FilmFax." He was asked why he didn't do more science fiction roles. He responded (paraphrasing) "There isn't much in science fiction movies for an actor to work with... usually, they are stories that are plot driven, or are pushed on by special effects. You have to have a dynamic character in the story, in order for me to be interested."

Quite true. You look at his character of Taylor, the cop from Soylent Green and even Neville from Omega Man, and you see characters that change over the course of the stories. Certainly Moses had a huge change in his life.

Heston himself went through changes. As he got older, he got more conservative, and became a huge NRA spokesman. Sometimes, in that capacity, the man lost his sense of appropriateness, and did some stupid, stupid things like the "in your face, Columbine!" rally one week after 13 students and a teacher died at the hands of mac 10 weilding nutcases, Harris and Klebold.

Everyone pulls stupid crap in their lives. I'd rather remember him for his younger days, before he was goaded into becoming an ass by an organization like the NRA, which has a history of attracting some of the most "fringe" supporters in US history.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 3:30:45 PM   
Level


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The Denver meeting, I've been trying to Google some info on that.

quote:

NRA and the Reaction To Tragedy. The dominant theme in Bowling (and certainly the theme that has attracted most reviewers) is that NRA is callous toward slayings. The theme begins early in the film, and forms its ending, as Moore confronts Heston, asserting that he keeps going to the scene of tragedies to hold defiant rallies.

In order to make this theme fit the facts, however, Bowling repeatedly distorts the evidence.   Bowling portrays this with the following sequence:

Weeping children outside Columbine, explaining how near they had come to death and how their friends had just been murdered before their eyes; Cut to Charlton Heston holding a musket over his head and happily proclaiming "I have only five words for you: 'from my cold, dead, hands'" to a cheering NRA crowd.   Cut to billboard advertising the meeting, while Moore in voiceover intones "Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charlton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association;"   Cut to Heston (supposedly) continuing speech... "I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington West, the Mayor of Denver. He sent me this; it says 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I say to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here."

The portrayal is one of Heston and NRA arrogantly holding a protest rally in response to the deaths -- or, as one reviewer put it, "it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy." [italics added]. Moore successfully causes viewers to reach this conclusion. It is in fact false.


Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting, whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.
Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held.
Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was a response to his being given the musket, a collector's piece, at that annual meeting. Bowling leads off with this speech, and then splices in footage which was taken in Denver and refers to Denver, to create the impression that the entire clip was taken at the Denver event.   Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme.

Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a lie, a fraud, and quite a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison.   Moore has actually taken audio of seven sentences, from five different parts of the speech, and a section given in a different speech entirely, and spliced them together, to create a speech that was never given. Each edit is cleverly covered by inserting a still or video footage for a few seconds.   First, right after the weeping victims, Moore puts on Heston's "I have only five words for you . . . cold dead hands" statement, making it seem directed at them. As noted above, it's actually a thank-you speech given a year later to a meeting in North Carolina.   Moore then has an interlude -- a visual of a billboard and his narration. The interlude is vital. He can't cut directly to Heston's real Denver speech. If he did that, you might ask why Heston in mid-speech changed from a purple tie and lavender shirt to a white shirt and red tie. Or why the background draperies went from maroon to blue. Moore has to separate the two segments of this supposed speech to keep the viewer from noticing.   Moore then goes to show Heston speaking in Denver. His second edit (covered by splicing in a pan shot of the crowd at the meeting, while Heston's voice continues) deletes Heston's announcement that NRA has in fact cancelled most of its meeting:

"As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings. This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that."
Moore has to take that out -- it would blow his entire theme. Moore then cuts to Heston noting that Denver's mayor asked NRA not to come, and shows Heston replying "I said to the Mayor: Don't come here? We're already here!" as if in defiance. Actually, Moore put an edit right in the middle of the first sentence! Heston was actually saying (with reference Heston's own WWII vet status) "I said to the mayor, well, my reply to the mayor is, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country, from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you here in this room could say the same thing." Moore cuts it after "I said to the Mayor" and attaches a sentence from the end of the next paragraph: "As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land." It thus becomes an arrogant "I said to the Mayor: as American's we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land." He hides the deletion by cutting to footage of protestors and a still photo of the Mayor as Heston says "I said to the mayor," cutting back to Heston's face at "As Americans."   Moore has Heston then triumphantly announce "Don't come here? We're already here!" Actually, that sentence is clipped from a segment five paragraphs farther on in the speech. Again, Moore uses an editing trick to cover the doctoring. As Heston speaks, the video switches momentarily to a pan of the crowd, then back to Heston; the pan shot covers the doctoring.   What Heston actually is saying in "We're already here" was not the implied defiance, but rather this:

"NRA members are in city hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine.   Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.   So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy."


Don't take my word for it. Click here for CNS's full transcript of the speech, and here for the comparison.   Bowling continues its theme by juxtaposing another Heston speech with a school shooting at Mt. Morris, MI, just north of Flint, making the claim that right after the shooting, NRA came to the locale to stage a defiant rally. In Moore's words, "Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally."


Fact: Heston's speech was given at a "get out the vote" rally in Flint, which rally was held when elections rolled around some eight months after the shooting.   Fact: Moore should remember. On the same day, Moore himself was hosting a similar rally in Flint, for the Green Party.

Bowling's thrust here is to convince the viewer that Heston intentionally holds defiant protests in response to a firearms tragedy. Judging from reviews, Bowling creates exactly that impression. Here are some samples of reviewer's writings: "Then, he [Heston] and his ilk held ANOTHER gun-rally shortly after another child/gun tragedy in Flint, MI where a 6-year old child shot and killed a 6-year old classmate (Heston claims in the final interview of the film that he didn't know this had just happened when he appeared." Click here for original; italics supplied] Another reviewer even came off with the impression that Heston"held another NRA rally in Flint, Michigan, just 48 hours after a 6 year old shot and killed a classmate in that same town."   Bowling persuaded these reviewers by deceiving them. There was no rally shortly after the tragedy, nor 48 hours after it. When Heston said he did not know of the shooting (which had happened eight months before his appearance, over a thousand miles from his home) he was undoubtedly telling the truth. The lie here is not that of Heston, but of Moore.   The sad part is that the lie has proven so successful. Moore's creative skills, which could be put to a good purpose, are instead used to convince the viewer that a truthful man is a liar and that things which did not occur, did.   That may win an award at Cannes. It may make some serious money. But it is a disgrace to the documentary creator's art.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/873740/posts

Who is right? Beats me.


< Message edited by Level -- 4/6/2008 3:31:11 PM >


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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 3:54:51 PM   
Pyrrsefanie


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Nooooooooo!!!!

Allright, that does it... now I need to watch Planet of the Apes in his honor.  He may have been a horrible over-actor, but dammit, he's an American legend.


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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 3:57:15 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Moore needs to be taken behind the barn and horse whipped,reasons there are many too many to waste my SUNDAY AFTERNOON WRITING ABOUT...Now about Canada I love it in fact WE have a hunting camp there and visit often...I see  some sort of violence every time I am there,And what about the hells angels gang and their battles with other gang wars there innocent people getting caught up in the gun battles in the streets, every major city there is violent,would you walk the streets there not armed hell no not if you were smart. etc...Must I go on and on..

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 4:07:47 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
Aren't we ALL foreign...to someone?  i mean. how would you like it if someone declared, concerning your post, "Yawn, yet another American xenophobe..." Glass houses, being what they are, and all.....


You would have a point if I actually made a comment about the Canadian government, and gun laws... But since I haven't, what was your point?

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 4:08:08 PM   
bipolarber


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Funny. I lived in Denver. About 12 miles from Columbine. I remember the rally, and how they were asked to postpone. Instead, they used it to pump up their cause. Wellington Webb (your source didn't even get the name of the mayor right.) simply asked them to postpone. Instead, the NRA decided they had to twist the knife in the back of those mourning for the Columbine victims. Thus, the crap that earned Heston the black eye in Bowling for Columbine.

I'm a gun owner. I like to hunt. But you know, I never forget that those tools are designed for one reason: to kill something. As such, I support gun laws that make gun ownership dependant on taking saftey classes, and proficiency exams. (just like you do with driving a car.) Somehow, the NRA has take the stance that anyone old enough to pull a trigger on an M-16 has the right to own one.

As much as I like Heston and his movies, I am still of the belief that what he did during that time was wrong. It was insensitive, inappropriate, and it cast NRA members in a very bad light.

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 4:18:09 PM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
Aren't we ALL foreign...to someone?  i mean. how would you like it if someone declared, concerning your post, "Yawn, yet another American xenophobe..." Glass houses, being what they are, and all.....


You would have a point if I actually made a comment about the Canadian government, and gun laws... But since I haven't, what was your point?
LOL my point was the word foreigner in the context you used it was petty, and condescending. We live in a global society...(the corporate "we" not yourself, perhaps).  Educated people are aware of policy and practice in other countries, and not just their own. It's actually a good thing.  Nowadays, all the workd truly is a stage...which means others are watching, harder to pull a "Hitler" that way.  Come to the light.... Isolationism is sooo last millenium...
~international slut

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 4:34:59 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Funny. I lived in Denver. About 12 miles from Columbine. I remember the rally, and how they were asked to postpone. Instead, they used it to pump up their cause. Wellington Webb (your source didn't even get the name of the mayor right.) simply asked them to postpone. Instead, the NRA decided they had to twist the knife in the back of those mourning for the Columbine victims. Thus, the crap that earned Heston the black eye in Bowling for Columbine.

I'm a gun owner. I like to hunt. But you know, I never forget that those tools are designed for one reason: to kill something. As such, I support gun laws that make gun ownership dependant on taking safety classes, and proficiency exams. (just like you do with driving a car.) Somehow, the NRA has take the stance that anyone old enough to pull a trigger on an M-16 has the right to own one.

As much as I like Heston and his movies, I am still of the belief that what he did during that time was wrong. It was insensitive, inappropriate, and it cast NRA members in a very bad light.


I also own many weapons for self defense and I own GUNS for hunting and sport shooting..You will find us on many Saturday after noon plinking at cans or targets on the back 40,Now just like any else thing the second amendment can be interpreted so suite your view,Does it apply to only the citizen soldiers in an organize group to bear arms or is it intended for everyone...The NRA promotes training for gun owners etc... I just can't every see the day in America where we can't own and bear arms..Our best home defense and early warning system are our dogs,I own hunting dogs and also have two that are protection trained...WE decided to train the dogs to protect the house and Diane since in the past I was on the road just too much but don't think for a minute she and those here wouldn't put a load of double 00 buck in your behind if the need called for such actions..This question of guns well be a burning debate for years to come...bounty

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RE: Charlton Heston dead at 84 - 4/6/2008 4:47:03 PM   
caitlyn


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There is a certain cut-to-the-chase meaning at work here.
 
Anyone, anywhere, has the right to comment on any issue they choose. There are however, issues that have global impact, and issues that don't.
 
Commentary on issues that do, fit nicely in to one category. Commentary on issues that don't, fit in to an entirely different one.
 
The former comes across as rational and reasonable. The latter, no matter how reasonable, balanced and rational one tries to be ... in the end you can't escape a bit of, "Why the fuck do you even care?" logic.

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