hopelesslyInvo
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quote:
a person’s girlfriend.
sometimes offensive
a single or married woman of any age
the word girl is sometimes used to describe a female of any age
when meant to describe a woman in professional or other adult contexts it might imply child or be otherwise misleading
"girl has a dated meaning of 'female servant'. Is it any wonder that some female dominants might take some offense to the term?"
there is a lot of content in those definitions that i've been trying to make point of, first though of course, i've never tried taking the stance that the term girl wouldn't be offensive to female dominants, in my very first post i agreed and suggested against it. it is out of character and well known, or at least easy as hell to figure out that it will be frowned upon in many situations, even i couldn't think of a way to word things in reference to a domme as being a girl without feeling that i'm not only coming off as offensive, but feel like i'm truly being offensive. i can't even imagine calling someone such as a mistress "my girlfriend", the significance of the relationship weighs in similarly sure, but that term feels misplaced to me in this case. what i didn't agree on was that the word girl is in fact an insult to women period, even though it can obviously be used as one, that although it might not have any appropriate usage in this case, there are times it will be a non-issue. this is pointed out pretty well by stating it is "sometimes offensive", where then in other times obviously it is not offensive, and that "girl" can pertain to a "female of any age". also, the very trusted websters dictionary being cited here as saying girl is "sometimes offensive" cites that boy is rather "often offensive". food for thought on half of this debate, but i have enough to ramble on about without getting involved in too many other viewpoints as well.
obviously there's the point where in professional and other adult relations, or simply in any given case where it may be seen as a remark of mockery, it is condescending and insulting to call someone a girl or boy. that's very easy to understand and i'm not trying to argue that this doesn't happen, that it's not a big deal, that it doesn't matter, or that people are over reacting when they encounter it. what has "become my argument" where before i didn't expect there was anything to even argue, is that the word girl when used as an insult isn't the be all end all of the use for the word; even the words female, woman, and lady can be used in a derogatory sense, just like man, guy, gentleman, and boy could easily be used to insult, where at other times they can all be appropriate or used in many cases used as a compliment.
referring to a female as a girl in my viewpoint, is no different than referring to a full grown feline as a kitty, a full grown canine as pup, or any other of the dozens of things people call them other than cats and dogs, in nearly all of these cases these terms are used to show affection, not belittle. when i use the word girl in reference to someone, it is in correlation to my viewpoint of the woman, it is not that my viewpoint of her is lesser and it is not an attempt to say she is not a woman, or to undermine what is in front of my eyes by how i attest to it. more simply it is a difference in dialect; but an indifference in meaning.
in my numerous examples and points i've been making, i haven't seen hardly anyone in the thread respond to or take notice of so much as a single thing i've written, not even in disagreement, rather i'm met with an abundance of posts just looking to instantly shut me down and discredit anything i say, (in varying degrees of politeness and self righteousness) only because i didn't say "girl is the worst and most insulting word to call a person, how evil and sexist". i can't begin to describe how frustrating that can be for people to talk to you but ignore what you say, and i can only hope someone doesn't aim to chime in with the quip "now you know what it's like".
it was never my intention to bring sexism and feminism into discussion, only appropriate dialogue, but since i'm forced down that path due to accusations of denial and ignorance, well i'll be honest. i don't see how age, or maturity is supposed to have any stamp on capability, or worth to either gender in the first place. even if we had a clear and absolute differentiation between girls and women, is the argument supposed to be that woman are more capable and have more worth than girls? feminism and sexism only applies to females of certain ages? shouldn't the word "girl" be a part of female identity that they wish to keep from being shunned rather than considering it to be the thing that shuns them, even if they no longer see themselves as being a girl, considering what they used to be nothing to look down on either? wouldn't "girl" be a good thing even if it only applies to the what they matured from? if the concern is about the celebration of what is female, for being unique and different but of equal worth, deserving of equal but unique rights, and the abolishment of discrimination against them, shouldn't that include "all things female". wouldn't it be naive to believe that people are sexist for using the word girl, and that them just using a different word than girl will change in the slightest degree how they feel, see, or treat women? whether their original treatment was good or bad? is it so horrible to think that the word is used by many in regard only to gender or association of relations, with no correlation to age or suggestion to childhood, let alone downplaying worth. do you disregard the importance of people's youth and gender, or just assume that we must be when we use "a" word? does respect, let alone capability or worth have the slightest thing to do with age or gender? that might be my shortsighted viewpoint, it might be something "only a man would be dumb enough to think" but i can't do anything other than apologize or explain myself to someone if i've caused them to feel insulted, the whole point is that it bothers me that people feel insulted when i'm doing no such thing, and have no such intents.
words can be powerful, and people can be insulted by any number of words for any number of reasons, some people are sensitive to certain things and have good cause for irritation though it may not be apparent to anyone else, but if i'm not being insulting, i'd prefer people to have some measure of consistency in understanding. as it stands i've yet to belittle or insult anyone, let alone have i called anyone a girl to suggest or even possibly cause any misunderstanding, but regardless of appreciation or insulting, i cannot sincerely, and will not falsely attempt to apologize for my beliefs, only my actions.
quote:
More than "possibly", hon. Quite literally, "girl" = "human female subadult".
You can certainly use "girl" if your domme personally enjoys it. I would not like it much myself--I have seen the term "girl" used too often to diminish adult women and basically demote them to child status so that people can be condescending. Personal favorite example: the narrator of a National Geographic documentary who referred to Jane Goodall as "this girl studying chimpanzees" when Goodall was already well over 30 at that time, married and the mother of a young son, and had been one of the world's most imminent primatologists for over five years. 
Personally, I am too old to be called a girl.
first things first. *hug* and don't take much of anything i say as being directed towards you even though it follows after your quote~
anyway, i'd like to stress just a bit more that i was never suggesting someone would have any good call to refer to a domme as a girl, or that although i use the word girl for various reasons or occasions, which is usually in an abstract way or in 3rd person, or that i use the term girly to describe various things, or hell the fact that i fancy the word at all, i neither would ever refer to a domme as a girl or want to. a domme is something me and my brain associate with the word woman, while girl is obviously more associated with submissives, neither is less of a woman, neither is unlikely to be insulted if i directly call them a girl.
where you suggest girl has only one meaning, and very literal, i think even if that were the case, to say it means 'sub-adult' is more harsh that it is generally ever meant to imply. maybe it's just me wording it nicely, but i think 'young female' is just more relevant of a definition for the case of suggested age, and that it doesn't suggest less of anything such as worth, only years gone by, so that "sub" part makes it sound like it truly is a discriminating word, even to 7 year olds. surely maturity has a lot of relevancy in it all, but "sub-adult" makes it sound as though until a female comes of a certain age, she truly has diminished worth. though a child is diminished in things like responsibility, they're not diminished in appreciation or worth, as a human, her feelings and "being" are no less precious or less important. i know that wasn't your meaning, but sub-adult makes you sound like a meanie~
but to my point, as in the post were there are several official definitions and conglomerate opinions are listed, there are other accepted meanings and usage for the word girl. the point i was trying to make that you are quoting me on is that in every single one of the varying definitions, especially what is listed from those sources, only two absolutes are present in each of them, that it is referring to a "human" and that the human is "female", and i said possibly of youth because although it isn't a part of every definition, it is too common of a characteristic that it can't go unmentioned.
as i was speaking of before, i also don't think that when submissives or dom/me's find a likeness in the word "girl", that it necessarily has anything to do with age play. as there are different uses, i also figure others such as myself have different sentiments or connotations with the word other than just age, or negativity. for me and surely many others, girl has always been a general term for a female, but one that hints at characteristics and bonds. i've always used the words girl and woman the same way i've ever used the words such as cute, hot, lovely, and sexy, which are all descriptions of attraction and in regard to the same thing, but suggest the sort of attractiveness i see in them. the same is true for women and girls, to most people the word "woman" surely has a more mature and adult feel to it at its core, just like "girl" has a root association with being young, but there is more to things than just this surface. with the word woman it also feels like it describes part of their character and how they view themselves, their attitude as being more of a serious demeanor, their motivations might seem more grounded. with the word girl i feel it carries a sort of sweetness, playful, or light-hearted characteristics that some surely consider to be heavily associated with being childish, but truly they have no requirement of age specifics, they don't signify a lack of maturity, and there is nothing negative in these aspects.
it's hard for me to see the insult in the word girl unless it is used as an insult, being out of character, or with some intent to belittle or diminish worth, but regardless how other people often view the word "girl", it is not a universal viewpoint, to me it has always been and still is nothing more than a term of endearment, far from an insult, far from sexist, far from any of this thread's one sided belief. it simply bothers me that on the occassions i would use the word, people would think i was trying to insult or be offensive to them. it is not my intent when i use the word, it is not required to be anyone's intent. whether or not anyone uses the word, is dependent on personal expression, and how we think the use of it will be received, good or bad, it's still used for a reason. everyone that feels they would be insulted to be referred to as a girl just adds to the testament of why i don't throw the word around. if it's still not apparent that "i don't refer to all women as girls, and definitely not all the time, but when i do say it there is no insult applied to my context or inherent offense", then it probably never will be, but it doesn't hurt to try another time or two~
it's hard to argue against "boys and girls" being specific to children, but "guys and girls" is something i've simply been brought up with, i'd assume many others have been as well, and you see this on one occasion after another, girl fits into two different contexts and with full integrity and equality intact. i've made at least a dozen examples, i could make an additional myriad of examples. anybody want another one? although as i'm writing this i'm technically only talking to myself, i didn't hear anyone say no, so myself thinks that might as well mean "sure, i'd love another example".
i've got sunshine, on a cloudy day. when it's cold outside, i've got the month of may. i've got so much honey, the bees envy me. i've got a sweeter song, than the birds in the trees. i don't need no money, fortune or fame. i've got all the riches baby, one man can claim. i guess you'd say, "what can make me feel this way?" that's right, i went there, i dragged it into this debate, it's "my girl", and oh shit, look at all the blatant belittling sexism!! but do i jest, where's the horrible insult in this use of the word girl? is someone under assumption he's referring to his daughter instead of his wife that the song was written after, or that his wife is 16 and he's a pedo? is anyone under some sort of belief that he is talking down to his wife rather than sensationalizing how wonderful he thinks she is? is someone out there going to attest that he's an ignorant sexist pig, unaware of what a degraging horrible person he is and that he's setting a terrible example for others on how to treat women? give it a rest, if anyone could find that song insulting, please walk up to the chalk board and write your name down as part of the list of people who simply look for shit to bitch about.
now compare that song with girls, girls, girls by jay-z, if you can call that piece of shit a song, please feel free to rip that crap and his use of the word girl apart. both it and the video is a giant sexual slam, and despite mentioning how much he adores them, what he adores them for is having big tits and a nice ass, but he shuts them down any time they try to speak. so there's what i call a fair example; same word, both in a song, with one hell of a difference. one girl brings sunshine, the other girl just better bring that ass over here and shut that mouth unless she's going to put it to real use.
the important part isn't that the word girl is even being used in those two songs, simply that there's a difference between what's offensive or not when there's no inherent insult in a word. if the songs were "my woman", and "women, women, women", it would be no different in how one is a very pleasant affection towards women and the other is greatly belittling and degrading to them. what's surprising isn't that there are those who are unoffended by the word girl, it's that there are people who are unoffended by this sort of sexist behavior, plenty of women/girls/ladies/females i know sing right along to garbage like this. it's probably a safe bet that jay-z thought he was being respectful to women in this song by calling them girls instead of bitches or ho's or something. well, that brings me back into my "pretend world".
it is true that i don't really see much of the sort of social conditions made mention of, i don't see these limitations in the workplace or anywhere else. maybe where i live and the people i work with have something to do with it, but that's the truth. i had a ton of female instructors and professors, my principal was female, tons of female bosses and superiors, the president of of the design association i follow is one of the most amazing women i've ever met, i simply don't run into what seems like an exaggerated truth, even when i was mr. walmart so many mangers were women, and while you could say that people are sexist on job assignments, there is an application of common sense to what jobs are better suited for people, but it's amazing how easy it was for a girl to say "i'd rather be in lawn and garden loading vehicles than a cashier" and they were considered for it and generally got where they wanted to be. but is it some crime or simply good business to primarily have men set to more labor intensive roles, and have the women doing things primarily like working the register unless they speak out what their interests are and other places they want to be considered for? sure we can look at demographics, around 2/3's of the managers were men, and the customer service reps i saw were all women aside from one guy who was gay, but who was above all the reps, support managers, assistant managers, co managers, and store managers? our district manager kara, sound like a girl name? it should. the primary reason for so many young female cashiers is because that job changes hands often and while high school students are a primary source of applicants, it has been found that the females are more reliable in this age group.
so sure, maybe i live in green acres, maybe i don't encounter these degress of discrimination due to what my experience has been and where it was gathered, and surely there's the other option that it has simply been hidden and unapparent to me because of my gender, but would the lack of discrimination be so hard to believe, am i truly the most naive person of my own surroundings, or are there more names on the board than i expected?
that's the truth though, i don't see this abhorrent discrimination against women, but i'll tell you what i do see...
"sexual harassment". is it similar? yes. are the two related? redundantly yes. is it the same thing? nope. does it have the same effects? only if "pissed off" is the only effect you look at. i never hear the word girl to degrade a woman in environments like the workplace, but what do i so often hear instead of "girl"? babe, bitch, chick, broad, ho, slut, damme, you name it, i encounter it often, well maybe not damme... i'd almost be willing to bet i hear these more often than women, because of the rules of sexual harassment in the workplace, most guys instead of speaking out in such a manner will keep their comments and remarks on hold until they're out of earshot, and then share their wonderfully insightful quips just between us guys. my teachers did it to the staff and primarily to the students, my managers did it to employees and customers, and sure as hell i run into it everywhere else i go, even my own father is such a patronizing sexist that i couldn't get away from it at home. and i'm not some sexually dead anomoly of the human race, but there's a difference between seeing someone and bumping your friend on the shoulder to say "hey man check her you, she's pretty/cute/hot/sexy/gorgeous/beautiful/etc" and saying "hey man, check out tits over there" or "i bet she's a slut, look at her working that ass". it's the sort of bullshit that has made me resent most men, i've long since hated the way they viewed women, even though to many degree's we adore a lot of the same things, our appreciation is in very different aspects.
but that's it, i don't see unfair treatment, lack of rights, or unequal opportunity, all i see is sexual harrassment and unacceptable sexual remarks. i don't see people downplaying women to be as children or sub-human, i see that regardless of who they are or what they have accomplished, the greatest importance to most will be that she's either a slut, a prude, has a hot body or is disgusting. in other words, that gender isn't something i visibly am aware of as setting a limitation to what they can become, but that they can't seem to get away from being judged on appearance to a degree that far exceeds what little appearance actually has any concern with. it's not about what laws are in place or what treatment is in effect, it's that men continue to be men. oh and note how i'm able to insult by using the word man, any word can be used to belittle, i don't need boy, just as women could be used instead of girl to have the same effect.
i'd agree it's almost impossible to directly refer to someone as a girl or boy without being offensive, but speaking figuratively such as "there's this girl i really like", or "i'm having girl trouble", or "i met a wonderful girl", or "this dress is really girly", "it's girls night out" (i did mention i had a ton of examples right?) these sorts of things are such a non issue i don't see how anyone who doesn't have their name on the board would so much as raise an eyebrow.
when i think of a domme, my brain associates with the word woman, it reflects what sort of female i'm attracted to, that although i'm very fond of girls, if i'm looking for a domme, i'm not looking for a girl. i use my common sense to judge what is appropriate in addressing people, but even when it fails me, if i know someone finds something to be insulting, or simply prefers to be called something else i have no quarrels in speaking to them in a different way, i see it the same as ma'am, or going by last name basis, or anything else. i honestly can't remember the last time i directly referred to someone as a girl, anyone caring to look would probably find no place in any thread or profile that i referred to anyone as a girl (aside from my one blantant sarcastic pun earlier) but when i do use the word there's nothing to be insulted by, and if you are insulted, it is not because of me, it's because of you or because of someone else. i've always seen girl, woman, female, and lady, as being the same thing just like coarse, rough, or grainy, but obviously one word fits into a situation or example better than another for any multitude of reasons.
i'm sympathetic to a lot of the bullshit women live with, i'm sure i'm blind to a lot of it, and less concerned by much of it since i don't go through with it or have it on my shoulders. the only thing i can relate with is that it's not just causing women problems, it causes me problems. because they have been mistreated, i have to be even more self concious and worry i'll make a wrong step, because others have proved to be shitty people, i now have to constantly try and prove i'm not like them. the bullshit people subject others to comes back full circle, unfortunately that circle has a hell of a radius.
quote:
What we are talking about here is context...CONTEXT. If one African American man says to another, "yo, Imma go check out my boy aroun' da way, yo..." That is a culturally-specific communication between familiars. It is acceptable and understood as having no negative connotation... Pay attention to the context. If you (I'm assuming you are white from your avatar/pic) walk up to an African American man, especially one you are unfamiliar with, with whom you have no relationship, especially on his turf and look at him and refer to him as, "boy." At first, he may stop and regard you and ask you to repeat. If you're lucky, he may even ask that politely...if you then have the audacity to repeat the word, his patience is likely to run very thin...depending upon his general disposition, he may do any of the following: become angry and ask in an angry tone, "who you callin' boy?" He may stand (if he is seated) and make physically challenging gestures. Or he may just haul off and punch you in the eye...It all depends. He also may do none of the above and choose to take the opportunity to educate you (or, as he may be thinking, "to educate your obviously ignorant ass"). And I use the word ignorant in its most benign context...as referring to a state of lacking certain knowledge or experience - which would appear to be the case- and not as some nasty flame. Do you get my meaning?
If you require proof of what I've written above, I gladly invite you to the `hood to test this out for yourself. I promise to call 911 if the situation gets a little hairy.
To be clear, I am not referring to African American men who identify as submissive or as slaves, who have accepted this identity and who generally have no issue with being referred to as "boy." However, even many, if not most of these men may have some issue with unfamiliars calling them "boy," unless this is a situation occurring within his particular lifestyle community...
hell yeah it's about context, context has been the blunt of nearly every point i've made since the beginning yet it gets taken back out of context each time it is hounded on. keeping in context, lots of women refer to each other as girls, lots of men refer to each other as boys, in endearing ways. most any subculture makes use of these words, it doesn't have to be people like mr. g, who be poppin n' lockin fo muh homies on da down front, yah f'real muh boys~ ganstas and rednecks use the term boy similarly regardless of slang or which one can actually string together a sentence worthy of being called english. familiars is just one more thing already pointed out in which usage of the word "girl" easily changes its implication. be it as a relationship or a friendship, be it as "my girl" or "hayyyyyy gurrrrrlllll".
me walking up to "mr. yo dis be my turf" without having ever met him before and me calling him boy would be no different than any other person doing so. mr. turf generally has a problem with anyone he doesn't know, mr. turf usually looks for shit to start, you don't have to walk up to mr. turf, mr. turf walks up to you; i've no doubt that mr. turf is a name i would find on the chalk board with so many others. regardless, his reaction to me or anyone else calling him boy will probably be very likely dependent on the rest of my words, and the tone of my voice. if i act like an asshole and say "hey boy, the hell you looking at?" that's going to cause problems, but who wouldn't have a problem with that, now if i say "sup boy, the hell's going on around here tonight?" that's going to get a huge difference in reaction, even if he does still say "who you calling boy?". now if i just walk up and start casual banter with him or someone else and i say "me and a couple of boys are going to meet up at the bar around 11", i guarantee he's going to care about as much as i care for the people who have their names on that damn board, in other words he won't give a shit. but hey we're all getting ahead of ourselves again right? i mean, did i ever say that everyone's a boy and girl, and that it's appropriate to say in any case and to anyone, and that you can throw these terms around like words that mean nothing anymore such as love? no... i stated something pretty damn far from that, you could almost say it wasn't what i said at all, imagine that. even so, like most any other case, if mr. turf says "who you calling boy?", if mr. turf is anything other than the typical sort of plague in a community and perhaps just mr. misunderstood turf who is a victim of his own passive aggressive behavior, then like nearly every other case i can simply tell the truth, "oh sorry, i meant no offense", and although a person like mr. turf will still have to get in the last word by saying something like "yeah well, just watch it", it's pretty well guaranteed to set things to a calm. anyone that would start a fight over something so petty to begin with is just an idiot looking for a fight, i try to avoid such idiots, and generally i do a pretty good job of it.
call me ignorant all you want, i don't fit the profile of what you describe, it doesn't bother me, it's putting me in a scenario out of context with anything i've said. that would be like me saying "if you were in the army and your commanding officer is a female, you walk up and say "hey woman", you're going to end up at least doing a shit load of pushups and running a ton of laps around the base for that one. in the military you use sir, ma'am, captain, lieutenant, sergeant, officer, commander, general, or other ranks, followed by a last name, period, end of story. despite woman being the surmised respectful way to address a female, especially a dominant or authoritative one, if you do it in this encounter... not only is it out of conduct, it is insubordination, you're implying that you question her gender as a relevancy in the capability of her rank (which is above you), and her being able to perform duties (which at this point includes disciplining and educating your obviously ignorant ass), you've done this injustice by simply making mention of her being a woman as if there's a point to it or that it matters. you do not point out genders, gender is inconsequential, we are an army of one. oh and i use the word ignorant in the most sarcastic of context, as referring to the state that this has been nothing more than a good example of a bad example. now why wouldn't i literally put this sort of example into the argument, because just like i hope you realize with yours, this example hasn't the slightest damn thing to do with anything in context to thread. it pertains to nothing under question, it answers nothing, they both take relevant points and twist context of them into a loophole situation where it no longer retains original meaning because it has nothing to do with what was originally said, and is just to say "see seeeeee you're wrong, it doesn't work here".
you make a point leading to the belief that "women" is the way adult females should be referred to respectfully, you didn't say "every female is best described as a woman and the proper and only way to address them is as a woman, and that being called a woman is what all females want to be referred as."
i make a point that much like females referring to their friends as girls, we males refer to our friends as boys. i didn't say "all guys refer to other guys as boys, in every situation you run across with every male calling them a boy is both acceptable and unoffensive". my point was pretty clear that many man do this, in terms with certain contexts including friendship, and not just african americans where it might have been first popularized, but from all sorts of races, from all sorts of subcultures, up to and including even guys like me who are so damn white i can't even call myself caucasian.
i'm about as ignorant in regards to linguistics as my posts are short, i'm about as ignorant to the hood and multiracial settings as i've enjoyed being crucified to the "dominant girl" thread. i grew up and work in louisville, and while it's not the definitive of such diverse and ghetto fabulous cities, it certainly qualifies for more than just "not living in the sticks".
and just as some quick points that have been running through my head, but uncaring at this point to dedicate any more time to figure out where they would best fit in...
when someone says something like "i want a woman, not a girl" is that something people translate as being "i want a 30 year old, not a 16 year old", or does it simply say "i'm attracted to a different sort of female, i want experience, i want more maturity"?
you can say i'm being condescending by how i use the word girl, or by me calling someone a girl, you cannot say i am condescending simply because i use the the word girl. well i guess you could say that, but at this point my care-factor of people's silly assumptions has plummeted near zero.
young woman, old girl... these are not oxymorons.
who determines when a person is mature, who determines when a person is no longer young, who determined these words must be separated? why would age make the slightest difference in anything in the first place, the word girl doesn't have to imply they are young, the word woman doesn't have to imply they are mature, and no title will change if a person sees you as compitent, capable, young, or mature, as these are all relative and subjective. to a child i'm old, yet many people especially here say i'm too young, the same is true of maturity. some people see me as capable and compitent, some see me as inexperienced, and some see me as accomplished. they're all subjective to people's viewpoints and relative to other comparisons, they vary highly in context of what they apply to.
last but not least, how is it that with one lighthearted post with concern that, "in bdsm, dominant females should with very few exceptions be referred to as women and not as girls", and while we were all in agreement in that in the first place, how is it i ended up bombarded and dragged into this ludicrous argument?
*points to the chalk board*
< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 4/19/2008 9:24:06 PM >
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