hopelesslyInvo
Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline
|
quote:
He obviously understands the importance of being respectful of how other people may prefer to identify and be addressed. And you do not,
and you obviously do not respect any opinions other than your own. this discussion turned from “what dominant females prefer to be addressed as” into “women is the way all females should be and should want to be addressed”.
lets evaluate shall we?
quote:
And therein lies the problem...you don't care about how some women (namely this woman and several others who have expressed opinions on this subject) care and feel about being addressed.
the only assumption i can make as to how you came to this conclusion? you didn't read the posts. or is a more likely answer that you look at me, you look at my posts and you only see what you want to see. the problem isn't "what i don't", the problem is "what i can't", for some reason you won’t allow me to be respectful or understanding. “can't win to lose” they say? no matter how many times, since and including my original post i’ve said something, i’m accused of saying something else. always aiming to twist my words or look over what is written just to pick out one little thing they can badger me about.
every reply aside from the first one, you have not even suggested so much as a counter point, or mentioned where my line of thinking might be skewed. you don’t seem to have a problem with the very reasonable examples, nor do you disagree with any of it, or even make point of anything. i defend the word girl and positive or otherwise neutral uses for it, you only say girl is bad. i tell you i disagree, that i’m not the only one, and give reasons and examples. you only say i am bad. i’m still waiting for you to make a point instead of just stating things. as you may or may not know, the same information often leads to different conclusions.
lets get on the insult track, never did i so much as imply even in the slightest degree that i didn't care or express understanding to how people may prefer or resent being addressed. i implied (constantly) the complete bloody opposite but you've all managed to overlook or ignore that very simple fact, repeatedly, and will probably do so again if you bother to “read” this post, i also stated other examples aside from just "girl and woman" where this same case is true, just to further make point of it, and did so fairly adequately without deviating from the actual topic by bringing in... oh i don’t know.... every complaint the feminist movement has yet made to this day. i even made myself quite clear on the stance that "some people (namely this person and other people not in reference with this thread)" do not share your unwavering negative viewpoints. one, several, many, or even a proven majority of opinions will never substantiate an absolute for either side.
quote:
He obviously understands the importance of being respectful of how other people may prefer to identify and be addressed. And you do not, preferring to stick with the words and phrases that you find appealing regardless of what others may think or feel.
the only assumption i can make as to how you came to this conclusion? you didn't even read the first post. where was it you seem to believe you can cite me on saying "i still just call people what i want to, i don't care if she likes the word woman, i'm calling her a girl anyway", let alone the very reasons i supposedly have for doing so..? since reading what i write seems to be an impossible incursion for you, i'll save you and anyone else the trouble of looking for it and let you know it's not there to be found. i’m aware you’ll take my assurances to heart, but waste your time looking for it if you’d like. what you'll find if you actually read the text, is that the common sense of what is appropriate, is at best, further brought to light from experience. we already have the common sense, but common does not apply to individual, common applies to the “in general” and the “no shit” aspects of life. you will never know until you know.
“being respectful of how other people may prefer to identify and be addressed" is completely inbounds of the fact there will never be a glorified singular term that people appreciate or favor, unless i guess planet of the apes or something sets in and we only have one woman alive to say what she, “the entire population of females” prefers. common sense informs us that there are people like you well ahead of time, that’s why a situation like this thread title is so rare. we can only be expected to be expressive in a way that common sense will dictate “how i think people may prefer” until the individual makes it clear. that’s a very important word here, i n d i v i d u a l. such as your, and my, i n d i v i d u a l viewpoints. the part you fail to realize is how much our viewpoints coincide, but that gets back to the can’t win to lose part, i’m not sure if you really fail to realize it, or refuse to realize it.
lets take another example, you. these are rhetorical questions, but you don’t answer anything anyway so i guess telling you there’s not point in replying to these is a bit redundant huh? you identify as a woman and not as a girl. well was it always so? was it always offensive? when then did you become a woman? 18'th birthday? 16? 21? 32? 13? since birth? did you just look in the mirror one day and go "oh hey! i’ll be damned, look at that”? were you a woman before you even realized it? was it something of a surprise looking back? were you estranged the first time someone called you a woman or did it feel liberating? were you waiting for them to finally start using the word woman? does it matter when you became a woman or simply that you are a woman, presently? well, for my interests at least, they are both relevant to such an argument.
the question is what makes a woman? what governs it? age? maturity? who gets to sit on their ass all day and judge whether or not we’re mature enough to suit them? who sat at their desk to decide how many seconds tick by from birth until you’re a woman? as we all know, plenty of 40 year olds have no business in a liquor store, some adults can’t drive, and all too many grown ups show few visible signs of maturity. but at 21 i can legally get plastered, at 16 i can drive, and plenty of 12 year olds are so mature it comcerns others. so where’s the magic age or gauge to determine who is a woman and who is not? if you answered none of the above you win the prize. so who and how is someone determined that they are a woman? two ways.
1. the woman decides it, even if she’s unaware.
2. other people decide it, because of their individual beliefs and possible need for classification.
 “i’m just a 23 year old girl from georgia”
 “23 are you nuts? you’re a woman”
“i don’t think so, i can’t see myself as quite being a woman yet”
“yeah well it doesn’t matter what you think, you’re a woman”
who is right? ooooooo unsolved mysteries. whose term of expression is undeniable truth? both maybe? oh man that’s deep, screw unsolved mysteries, we’re in the twilight zone now, we have a girl who is a woman, girl-woman... and she’s teaming up with female-lady to take over the world. god help us all. how can they both be right, because the words are meaningless till people breathe life into them. the same way a traitor is a hero. the same way a capable man can be incompetent. the same way you think i’m ignorant and i’d say i know enough.
i remember a certain time in my life, after a series of events and accomplishments, i got a congratulatory sort of card from my mother. in a nutshell it said "the only thing i'm more proud of than the boy i raised, is the man he has become", that was the first time my mother ever referred to me as a man, or really anyone referred to me as being fully grown, finished in my maturity, at the age where all those people that said "enjoy it while you can cause when you grow up life sucks" would take effect, and despite my age, this unfamiliar word took me aback. was i really a man? now of all times? was it because of the events that took place, or was it something i've done that made me a man, at least in other peoples eyes? did something happen today that i missed? did i oversleep my mannification process? am i now some responsible independent adult? would i no longer be carded when doing age restricted things? how did i become this "man" when i feel no different than i did as a freshman in high school? the mirror didn't even help to answer one way or another, i didn’t look like the people i referred to as men, but what was i? while to some people this might be a concern, i didn’t care in the least, it doesn’t bloody matter. but i have every bit of right to be offended by both the terms boy and man as much as anyone can be offended by girl. if i see myself as one thing i’ll be offended by any other terminology, luckily what i see myself as is male who is pretty damn indifferent to words themself rather than how they’re used.
but still, i have to be something if only to make other people happy, so what then am i defined by man or boy? well for starters i am human, and i'm male, but despite any other classifications i'm still the same me i've ever been, and when people refer to “me” i could give two shits less “what” they refer to me as, but be certain that since i was old enough to attain self awareness i have been very concerned “how” they do it.
words are like cardboard boxes, we take our shit and fill them up with it, we remember what we put in them, we see them again when the box is taken out. these are self assigned connotations. 6,650,000,000 people on the planet, and everyone of them that understands the english language each has a girl box, as well as a box for every other single word english or not, and every one of them has put different shit in these boxes. when we involve ourselves in discourse, other words we use will cause us to throw the shit in our boxes into other peoples boxes to let them know what our meaning is, we play show and tell with the baggage we keep around. these are implied connotations. when you arrange these boxes you have content, you have a message. it doesn’t matter what is written in sharpie marker on the outside of the boxes, what matters is the shit inside them.
i think you’d like the contents of my girl box, you’d probably hate my funny box though.
how about i touch on this whole equality thing a bit more, the premise of equality and worth isn't in gender, race, nation, or age, it's the individual. the individual is what is important here and everywhere else, more than context, more than gender, more than connotations, more than oppression, more than wording, more than emotions, more than tired arguments. but there’s this small problem, we are not equal. you cannot make us equal. so what is the equality in reference to? opportunity. rights. worth is figurative, it falls under territory of “eye of the beholder”, as humans our lives are of equal worth, and through our actions we are able to increase our base worth to the beholders, or diminish it.
treating each other as equals... it is different to respect the wishes of an individual than to respect that individual's wishes as being relevant, and universal to all. it is different to respect someone's wishes, rather than to believe their wishes are "the right way". if we’re all equals, then i must respect other opinions than just yours. when i’m respecting opinions that clash, then we’ll see how much respect they have. another issue is respect for myself, i may certainly choose not to respect your wishes because it will conflict with and diminish my own respect.
much of our culture is not as formal as it was, many sticks have been removed from many asses, and we have come to use even, if not most of all, our language in more casual and expressive ways. everyone encounters things that will raise their concerns and this a good thing, yet there are a number of people who want to take “their concerns” and impose those concerns on all of society, including onto me. unfortunately for them i don't want these people to be my new parents, and there's nothing that will allow them to act as my parents, either. people should be judgmental, people couldn’t have a set of “values” otherwise, if a person has a problem they should speak out against what they hate or get the hell away from it, in most cases it’s easily done. want to stand your ground? then speak up, make your point; if you’re persuasive you might convince others the justifications in how you stand, but some people are never going to agree with you, your beliefs might be wrong, nor should you be forced to agree with them. everyone is offended by something, it makes us human, but it doesn’t make those things we are offended by wrong.
when you put experience through the common sense filter, how often a person will encounter someone that blows their own composure all to hell on a whim, just so they can bombard you with political correctness and their personal intolerance, simply tells a person that in order to appease such people, they either need to speak like an expressionless computer or otherwise just have to stay on their toes at all times and watch every damn word they say because you never know when someone will over react, feel insulted, or what they'll even be offended by.
then when you also know that there are in fact some people that, when you don't insult them, aren't insulted by it, common sense also shows us that among people there is a large degree in difference of opinion, tolerance, and of course, understanding. which suggests that around some people, at the very least, a person can possibly speak freely and be at ease far and away from the sensitive and persecutive ears of the rest of the world who never tire of claiming they are victimized, oppressed, and being held down by everyone else. imagine that, being able to converse without worry that someone parading around underdog status is going to consider everything you say crossing the line. i’m tired of people screaming rape! rape!!! discrimination!! hatemonger!! every time they don’t get their way. i’m tired of people blaming others for their own faults, insecurities, and issues. it doesn’t make me insensitive to get tired of bullshit. i can handle tears, i can sympathize, but what i lack tolerance for is self righteous bullshit.
“woman” is considered the respectful word on this premise only because it's considered a safe and neutral word to use, it's the politically correct way to address a female, it's something considered appropriate for the professional and public world. how did it become this way? probably through a series of trying to make people who are never satisfied, happy. woman is considered respectful by most, because 3rd party concerns “says it is respectful”, and silly me, i grew up believe people could make up their own damn minds what they find offensive or respectful, and that it wouldn’t be absolute.
times change, i'm used to that, i’m aware of the past, but i'm not about to run and line up in a row of people who are ready and willing to suffer for the sins of the fathers, i especially will not suffer crap from people not even alive to have been sinned against. i'm not responsible for what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, and you weren't part of what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago. being aware of the simple fact that we live only in the present has nothing to do with taking things for granted, or not respecting where we come from and what our history is, but as you yourself said, in capslock no less, and please allow me to repeat the emphasis... it’s all about CONTEXT.
what was closely related products of equal rights, civil rights and affirmative action is now wreaking havoc on the ability for a person of any kind to so much as breathe without an outcry of someone being discriminated against and demanding retribution. it's taboo to say "you people", doctors can't tap your knee with a rubber hammer without fear of someone screaming malpractice, you're racist if you use the term "black" despite the celebration of bloody "black history month"... it's ridiculous, and it only makes advancement difficult for all of us.
now when a man who is more qualified and deserving than a woman for a promotion or raise at a job, she is being discriminated against "because a man got it"; and when a woman is more qualified and deserving than the man, she only got it "because she's a woman". when the word woman is used we are still often accused of being sexist, and can't even so much as tell a child "the nice girl at the counter will give you some candy, would you like that?", because that's flagrant sexism too, god forbid that when trying to appeal to a child you use terminology they're more familiar and comfortable with, god forbid you use a term they find trusting. (and before someone quotes me on basically saying "girl means child", keep in mind because no one wants to follow the word cohesion, i've not been thrown into one argument and allowed to argue that one standpoint, but more close to fifteen different ones including but not limited to this one. don't bother replying to me by quoting that one line and calling me a hypocrite, it'll only cement the fact that everything i say is being disregarded in the first place, the bigger point is showing usage that doesn’t insult anyone) the point stands the same, what the hell does this line of thinking help? this bullshit is only a hindrance to society.
we’re not talking about that you as an individual might have a problem with it, that you’re not allowed to have a problem with it, or even that you shouldn’t have a problem with it. we’re not talking about how knowing that you have a problem that we can’t choose to be respectful by changing our wording. we’re talking about an inability to deal with people to deal with their personal issues and problems when confronted with them, it is that persons responsibility, not any other persons or groups, to deal with personal issues, not to try and censor someone else’s life. if you let your personal life issues cause you problems, it’s not anyone else’s fault. there is a huge difference between being offended, and being wronged. most people don’t have thick skin, most people are easy to offend, to quote someone else, “we're all offended all the time, and we don't have a fucking right not to be offended.”
how is someone going to say i'm respectful by using the word woman, and disrespectful when using the word girl? until i’ve used them, they can’t. they’re throwing self righteous crap in my face, they’re saying i have to put the same shit in my girl box that they did, and they’re telling me to use my woman box which just isn’t always adequate. how is it that in a setting such as a bdsm community where so many of us pride ourselves as being supposedly more open minded than the vanilla world, that we can't be open to so much as even a term of expression, or at least not in any other way that how the vanilla’s corporate and social world looks at it? i’m not even speaking on using the word specifically “in” bdsm, but how is it that we have M/s, D/s, (note the flat out implications all abound here? implied inequality and respect?) and "slaves" who should "know their place" (zing?), dedicate themselves to taking care of someone else’s responsibilities, they are called bitches, sluts, whores, dirty, nasty, pathetic, worthless, sissy, and somehow all this isn't belittling and it is somehow looked at as equal, and are respected, but the word girl is diminishing and removes our equality end of story case closed? talk about being open minded right? it's not even in regards to calling a dominant a girl, (need i remind the people that manage to pick things out of my copy to tirade about, but always manage to not actually read what i've written, that for probably the 17th time i'm saying it once again "calling a dominant figure a girl is most likely going to cause offense and be seen as impugning to their stature" and i believe it was sound advice to recommend against it, we all bloody gave this advice) but just open you eyes a little wider, look at more than just yourself, can you not think of one single example for usage of the word girl that isn't insulting, i’m not even saying insulting to you, i don’t even care if it’s directed at you, you can’t find one? not one example? isn't there so much as "girl friend", "girl trouble", "girl's night out", "bad girl", "my girl" “sweet girl” or any other common use phrase, situation, or scenario, many of which are listed throughout the thread, not one that doesn't set off your personal internal rage alarm? if there truly isn’t even one case that’s fine, i’m not trying to convince you the word girl won’t offend you, and the point this time isn’t that other opinions differ from yours, but you should realize that in many cases, you’re being offended by something that is not even remotely insulting.
lets look at the sum of it all, a guy wants to know how to attract someone of the opposite gender. not a single person apparently took the line "dominant girl" as an insult, though nearly everyone suggested that it could be seen as insulting because they themselves found it offensive. it was nothing more than a term of miscommunication, despite the fact everyone got the message, it was obvious at a glance that he was looking for a dominant female period, he was looking for you, and no one assumed he was insulting the collective rectum of mistresses, or contrarily in fact looking for a 16 year old assertive female, by his use of the word girl. he wanted to know how to attract you, and "you" gave him advice on how to appeal to “you”, assuming the several that answered were truthful, it was sound advice, for this. your advice however is limited in how to attract the various other diverse types of females, it would not sound to take advice from this encounter and apply it as a standard, that right it’s everybody’s favorite word again, context. i also gave advice based on my experience, and low and behold, our advice matched! from two different bloody viewpoints! imagine that! yet while our advice was the identical, and my viewpoints have always been welcomed here before, why then did several people decided to badger me to death, and discredit my viewpoints or anything i say for that matter? that question has already answered, intolerance or names on the board.
however, the amount of over-reaction called in to place in this thread would suggest i either barged in here and started calling each and every one of you just a bunch of girls playing dress-up in latex, or that the title of the thread was "how do i attract some dominant broad?", and what is truly hypocritical is that the only person being belittled in worth or opinion here is me, an amazing thing i’d like to point out is that 99% of it is done without even addressing me with any terminology at all, also interesting is the fact that the single person in apparently in agreement with me called me boy, and who knows why for sure, but i know it wasn’t an insult, so i didn’t take it as one; holy shit what a concept. though i could have been offended by it, i still understood it wasn’t an insult and didn’t react as though the end of the world cometh. sure, the word boy could have been used for any number of reasons, but the context suggests that if anything, it was merely sarcasm, as if to say “i get what you’re saying”. but hey, what the hell else is more appropriate than sarcasm to make any word appropriate? even words that aren’t instinctively inappropriate to everyone.
but, it’s been getting a little lonely talking to myself, not only is most of anything i say here cast aside, but now i’m accused of being a liar, insincere, disrespectful, and an ignorant person. the stick i tossed ended up hitting a hornets nest of people who preach being open minded but show very little practice of it, a number of people who treat nothing as being absolute, unless of course it goes against what they believe. good call.
quote:
That's too bad. But more than that, it shows a lack of sensitivity, on your part, toward women, especially the very real struggles that women have fought and won regarding our inherent right to self-identity and the accordance of general respect and legal rights within this society. In general, your repeated insistence regarding your right to use the word "girl" is just plain disappointing, and completely misses the point.
the only assumption i can make as to how you came to this conclusion? the usual one, you just simply didn't read the bloody posts... what did you even read? did you just use the search feature on your browser to look for certain key words or phrases to pick out and go to town when you found one?
the only thing it shows, is that my approach is both sensitive and comprehensive, that i don't have a dogmatic attitude in what is acceptable. i’m both caring and sympathetic to a lot of people and ordeals, and i’m not alone... while men did not start the movement regarding the "very real struggles for women's rights", they consisted of the majority, and it was out of a sense of acknowledging the injustice done to women that elected officials (who in the 1960's and earlier times are a.k.a. men) that these inherent rights were finally and officially bestowed, and it is to those men as well as all the people (male and female) that appealed to them, that women today owe the rights that so many (don’t accuse me of pointing fingers) now take for granted. these struggles "women have fought and won", were not fought, or won, on your own, they weren’t then, they aren’t now. in "accordance to general respect" as you mention, i'm unsure how any woman forgets to give credit where it is due, but that might be aided in part that men are naturally who gets blamed for it all anyway. it could also be in part that, where in any feminist portrayal is on the news, in the papers, or on websites, pretty much all you see are pictures of what they consider "real women" huddled together at a park or marching through streets in matching t-shirts. such irony is not without prior occurrences, even susan b anthony (i trust that name is recognizable) lamented that while men were more or less of mixed feelings, they didn't object to women's suffrage, while most women however opposed it. and in more recent times it was surveyed, (and while i hate using polls as a source of legitimate information...) while most men were comfortable with the idea of having a woman for a boss, most women have not been. regardless, it's enough to literally question if most feminists throughout history have not been men, even if men were also considered the high hand in the very thing they fought against. the point is this was not a fight that has had any victories alone.
while i fully support being judgmental, before you point fingers and lay false judgment, it might first be prudent to figure out who someone is and what they support. otherwise it’s just plain prejudice. i can tell you where i see the lack of compassion, sadly it too would be discarded as irrelevant just like everything else, and just because of who was saying it. to keep things from escalating into even more different arguments i'll avoid getting into the issues men have, but i assure you women are not the only ones that have them, or fight them. these fights aren’t even won by conquering, it’s by convincing. you don’t win by removing your enemies in these sorts of fights, you win by removing the status of them being an enemy.
and my "repeated insistence regarding my right to use the word girl is just plain disappointing, and completely misses the point" you say? lets be quick and concise on this, “you” have missed the point. utterly and completely, it has been lost. not within a single word, breath, or train of thought have i even began to take into concern my unquestionable "right" to use the word, the last thing i was caring for to come into argument is the whole 1st amendment free speech side of things, if anything i'd have rather only had to delve into the realm of feminism and remain there if we had to deviate from the what the actual point is, but at least it's easier to argue this side.
even if you convinced me and the rest of the world including all the females that the word girl is insulting, i can still freely insult you with it. ^_^
see? i was right on both counts, i was right that “this is not what i’m arguing about”, and rather that “it’s easy to argue”, i pretty much knocked that entire argument out in one sentence. if only all my arguments were able to be so clear and in less words, but lets go ahead carry on eh?
is passion supposed to replace common sense? no one will ever feel a strong enough hate for a word, be it girl or any other word, to prevent my right to use it. the point you have so apparently missed isn’t that i’m arguing for my right to use it, there is no point, i already have that right; you’re also missing the point that i’m not arguing that the word girl is not used to insult, i’m not even arguing that you and many other women won’t, or shouldn’t find it offensive. you’ve failed to realize this because you’ve been reading inbetween the lines, and not in a good way.
...maybe i should underline this next bit, put it in a bold face and set it in italics at 30 point type while writing only in upper case, i’m not really one for eccentrics so maybe i’ll just settle for bold or something, figure it out later, here goes...
i’m not arguing that our right to free speech doesn’t also bring about an inherent responsibility of awareness as to what is appropriate and when it will be, as well as a responsibility for the effects our words have. i’m not arguing that you shouldn’t expect people to have enough rationale to figure out how words will impact someone before they are uttered. i’m not arguing that most people, without needing to be told so, wouldn’t already know to address a female in most cases as a woman if they wish to minimize negative reactions. in fact, i’m not even thinking of arguing that woman is a word which is simply a respectful way to refer to females, because i don’t believe it is.
regardless of what you say, my respect remains unchallenged because it cannot be measured by other people, respect is not always visible when it is present, respect is often an illusion merely granted by compliance, while resent is just as often hidden and mistakable. the word woman to me carries no inherent respect whatsoever, it is just a word, it can be full of, or lacking in respect when used, it can be a vivid description, or an abstract idea of someone. when i use the word woman it doesn’t mean i am being respectful, no one is being respectful simply because they use the word, most of the time people use that word to “play it safe”. i am being respectful only when in the case, and only because i know this is how you want me to address you, because i know this is how you want me to think of you, because i know this is how you want me to treat you. i cannot know this on my own, you must allow me that knowledge to me or i am left with nothing but guesses, and my words are just words whose implications are what i give to them. respect is in why i do, not that i do, or what i do. the respect in calling you a woman is why i address you this way, not because i’m addressing you, or what it is i’m addressing you as. why is what matters.
what signifies respect? it will never be universal. nothing will be universally resentful either. with someone sharing my same knowledge, where we both know a certain individual prefers to be called a woman, they can call her woman, and yet in them doing so, not have respect for her. again this is because why is what matters. regardless of the reasons other people have, when i use the word woman intently to a person, and i know that this person wants me to regard them as a woman; they still cannot know for sure if i do respect them, it is left to their beliefs and there is no way i can prove it, but using the word woman when i know they want me to, is how i show respect for them, but without that sincerity behind it, my meaning has no meaning.
that is why the word woman is not inherently respectful. if you can now understand now “why” i use word the word woman, you should also have a better understanding why i use other words, namely why i use the word girl. until i take the weapon in my hand it cannot do any wrong or good, words are no different, they are just tools for expression, they are useless on their own.
when picking out names, obviously people have mixed opinions on what they like and don’t like, as well as the reasons they like them, yet the child may or may not grow to like the name they were given, or maybe they prefer mike to michael and so forth, i see the same as being true to this. i have no quarrels with the word woman, i’m fond of this word and what it means to me, but i happen to genuinely also like the word girl as well, yet the person i am speaking to may or may not like it and prefer one word instead of another, and so i use the other word. it is this simple to me.
to you the word girl is disrespectful, but to me it’s just another relation to something feminine, which is something i love. it is another variance, another thing for me to appreciate in being unique. this entire argument has only caused me to have further appreciation it. very simply without having ever been in love to compare it to, my love for women by any terminology i can use is somewhat overwhelming at times, it could be seen as me being obsessive. it has made me observant and appreciative, but often blinded my judgment. it’s made me concerned with everything they do and uncaring to a lot of what they cause. it’s made me inspired and desiring but doubtful and self conscious. i find myself attracted to things in women you’re not supposed to be attracted to, gladly i know i’m not the only one who does. i find myself amused and appreciative at all the differences there are in the individuals, i find beauty even in people i’m not attracted to, and even in people and things i don’t really like at all, sometimes i just have to look a little harder for it.
and while i still have to play my part, a side of me is always happy to learn and know about the less than pleasant side a person can have, i can appreciate it even if i wish i didn’t end up running into it. i’ll never cease to be enchanted by livelihood, and surely i’ll never understand my fascination, but i don’t really care to. i’m sure part of my other appreciations, such as for art and my endeavors in it, reflect a lot of my feelings of how i view beauty. gladly i know i’m also far from the only one to pick up a pencil and gather my inspiration primarily from women.
i’m afraid though i have argued too single mindedly. you will have already found several times over that even people deserving of respect do not always get it, and some people will never give it. i might haphazardly use the word girl until it becomes apparent that a person takes offense to it, but other people might not use the word girl at all until they find out it will bother that person, and then they will seek to do so. sometimes it’s just in jest, and sometimes people want to express exactly how much they don’t care. some people think feet are gross, some people think bugs are gross, some people think affection is gross. if they’re so inclined they might voice themselves about it, they have every right to, and you have every right to be offended, as well as every right to unburden your own thoughts upon them.
free speech requires that we have a basic understanding of what is appropriate, not that we be appropriate.
culture is a part of us all, a blind man isn’t ignorant to the world, only to your view of it. he understands the world, just not as you understand it. we each have different levels of awareness, we each have different sorts of concerns and beliefs. someone can understand your viewpoint if you can accurately express it, and many viewpoints people have are similar. many things are apparent, while others are mysterious, but what we do with the knowledge we have isn’t too often a clear representation as to how much a person knows or cares.
quote:
What I am pointing out is the basic disrespect engendered in the term, for many women within this culture, vanilla or kinky.
what i am pointing out is that it is you assigning, or at least you accepting other's belief in this disrespect to the word, you and people like you (not necessarily male or female) have engendered this negative viewpoint to it, and it only applies to you and individuals that feel the same way. it almost seems like you agree at least a little in the fact that you say “for many women” not just “women” in this case, where obviously many others feel completely different. the argument of the word girl is little different than gay or bitch when you look at it in this sense.
there’s no guideline, or any qualified person able to say homosexuals aren’t allowed to call themselves gay just because it has also referred to someone as being happy, there’s also no one able to claim someone homosexual will or will not find offense to the word gay anymore than they will with words that are almost without exception used with intent to insult someone such as queer, homo, or fag. queer undoubtedly is also a term engendered as disrespectful but it is among a different case since while queer was not unheard of, it was not in common usage until it began being used as an insult, queer also has never been used as a term of endearment except in sarcasm, and has never been an appropriate or literal way to define gays.
fag however is actually a common use word in the uk for cigarette, but saying “smoking a fag” to us sounds confusing, it might sound to us as if they meant sucking a dick, but it’s pretty strange to think of someone sucking a richard right? so maybe they meant sucking a cock, but cock could as well refer to a male chicken, yet chicken could mean they’re scared, such as calling them a pussy, although pussy could also refer to a cat or the female genitalia. wait wait wait... what? stop the damn train, female genitalia?! i thought we were talking about fags here?
if you can figure out the implications of these words when they’re used, then why not the word girl? if the word girl offends you even when you know there is no offense intended, or hell if it was a situation where it doesn’t bother you at all but you prefer to be addressed as something else, then why like almost any other case can’t you just be content enough to instruct people that this is not how you wish to be referred and conceivably why, instead of trying to tell them what they actually meant by their own words, and telling them how everyone else will feel or should feel about it? that fact is it’ll still be up to them, and with some people it will be a lost cause no matter how you approach the issue, and the people who aren’t hopeless usually don’t need the advice anyway. if you expect a common opinion or reaction and wish to advice of it, the words “likely” or “many” might be in order if you want to drop them a friendly hint, but what more can a person really do other than possibly educate a person in possibilities.
sure bitch might possibly mean a female dog, but now that its primary usage in conversation isn’t to imply anything about canines, but to signify resent, now people tend refer to their female dogs as “girl” instead, because it’s more pleasant. but oh shit, that’s not pleasant at all, i just referred to female dogs as girls! that’s belittling and suppressing man’s best friend! oh shit! double shit!! i’m also sexist as well for calling dogs “man’s” best friend. what is wrong with me, why couldn’t i be more sensitive and respectful by just calling them what they are, a bunch of bitches.
[/badhumor]
quote:
And in light of your stated beliefs regarding those of the female gender written in your profile, I would think you would open yourself up to trying to understand that. But then again, you'd have to care enough for that...You'd have to actually care about how others are or may be affected by your attitudes and behavior. And that seems to be a stretch you're simply not willing to make. Too bad.
fuck, did we have to get back on a sour note again? well at least you read my profile apparently, it's a shame you couldn't take what i say there at face value either. if you were curious about me, my profile would be an obvious source of extra information, with something of a wealth of personal viewpoints and beliefs, but surely with as much as i’ve written, you don’t need to go looking for such things if the only reason you wanted to find them was so you’d have something else of mine to shit on. what am i going to tell you? think whatever the hell you want to think, result to insulting me if you must, it just wastes time, so i’ll say what i feel should be said, then get back to the damn discussion, sound about right? it sucks having to get back on a sour note after what i was writing a few paragraphs back, but what choice do i have if i’m going to defend myself against such insulting accusations?
do you realize as much as you already think poorly of me, if i were to consider turnabout fair play regarding your etiquette, you would be left with little choice but to absolutely despise me. sure, in this post i’ve taken a series of cracks about you not reading due to the fact that i could have adequately replied to your post just by quoting myself on things i’ve already said. but what if i constantly degraded on your morals, said that everything you write, think, or say is bullshit, and you’re basically just an uncaring self centered prick? oh, but that of course you have my pity.
you’d probably have less patience than i’m displaying, and assuredly we’d probably end up in nothing short of a tiring mess. but hey, i guess the bright side would be that it’s not like doing so could possibly diminish your viewpoint of the merit of my writing or cause you to ignore what i’m actually saying in it anymore than you already do. the only way you could show less concern for anything at this point is by not replying at all or by blocking me. i would hate to think that it would take you this long to do so if you were so horribly offended by knowing i keep the word girl in my vocabulary. what has ruffled your feathers so badly anyway that you went from preaching to undermining? i don’t want to hear you even try to insinuate i don’t bother you, saying that at this point would be an obvious bluff, it’s obvious to some degree, especially now, that i’m under your skin for some reason. is it something i said? xD
really though, i’m curious. is it my words or my wording. is it what i’m saying or who is saying them? do you feel like at all costs, even if it means resulting to petty insults to my set of values that you must feel you’ve won something? do you feel an undying need to talk down to me because of the subject matter, or because you list yourself as dominant and myself as submissive? do you find that how i haven’t dropped the subject, or simply buckled my argument to be contrary to listing myself as submissive? are you frustrated with the fact that i haven’t just rolled over and professed that i must be wrong to like or use the word girl simply because you don’t? do you even know why? i can only make so many guesses, but i don’t guess you’re going to tell me if i’m getting warm anyway.
obviously i too am compelled to continue the argument, and while the reason i continue to press on in making my points is because i’m still convinced i’m just not being convincing or clear enough, i’ll admit being frustrated outright myself, but mostly in the fact that you either disregard what i say or you baselessly try and discredit it by impugning me in one way or another.
quote:
P.S. Condescending was your word, not mine. Let's keep it real.
and jesus christ, talk about things to pick at, you’re going to gripe that i used the word condescending? it’s not like i misquoted you somewhere, and the damn meaning is the same. what does it matter if in the interest legibility or not being redundant as all hell i choose to use the word condescending instead of patronizing, diminishing, belittling, degrading, insulting, offensive, or ridiculing? that’s not keeping it real enough for you? am i typing a legal document out where i need to state exact words each sentence without the use of pronouns or synonyms? do i need to make it clear at the top of my post “belittling, herein and throughout shall also be known as and referred to as condescending”? you make it sound like i’ve exaggerated the word “dropped” into “thrown” or something. i made an example, the example used the word condescending. it made its intended point, it wasn’t out of context. the fact of the matter is i could have used the word loving or anything else instead of condescending and the message is still there. surely this is among the best examples of how you ignore the message in what is written and only look for something to pick at.
i used the word condescending in my post.
“end of story” not “end of the world”
like... what else can you possibly have a problem with? did i italicize some text you wouldn’t have? did i talk about the past in present tense? is the color of my text too black?
quote:
And ignorance comes in many forms, including the ignorance which is borne out of simply not having enough life experience or first-hand knowledge of how things really used to be for women in this country - and how things continue to be for some women in various situations.
what’s the many forms of ignorance here? you’re telling me ignorance can also come from “not knowing things, because you don’t know them” rather than just meaning “not knowing things”? there are only 2 forms of ignorance that i’m aware of unless you want to get idealistic and theoretical.
lack of knowledge.
false knowledge.
if there’s more than these two, and it’s not something that falls under the pretense of being philosophical sentiments, i’d be glad to hear it, otherwise what’s your point? wouldn’t it make more sense to say there’s many forms of “enlightenment” rather than basically saying “there’s more than one way to not know something”, or that there are many things i can be ignorant to, and for many reasons?
let me strike up another example, an example of something i can be ignorant to. if you were to say... possessing the knowledge and understanding as to how it feels to be in certain situations is knowledge that cannot be attained without having experienced it, no book or imagination can justly compensate. well, that would be a good point indeed, i could even philosophically see how something like this could be said to be a form of ignorance, although it is more of a case of what ignorance is in relation to, and to what degree the ignorance can be substantiated, and it very much so still falls in with the 2 basic forms of ignorance, but regardless of it all, it’s not pertinent to know how it “feels” in order to have knowledge of how things “are”, or “were”. that knowledge can be obtained by anyone, by many means. it’s pretty rare to reach clairvoyance, but curing ignorance is always possible to some degree.
if you’re going to tell me that i can’t adequately supplement first-hand experience with good ol’ knowledge, be it obtained from my own experiences, teachings, communications with people, or research of “how things really used to be for women in this country”, i’m afraid i’m going to have to point out that you and pretty much everyone else currently alive today is in no fit position to claim all that much expertise either. i’m also going to have to point out when you say “how things continue to be”, that since i don’t exactly live in a cave, and i do seem to live in this country, i’m quite allowed to claim first hand experience to current living conditions. sure, benefit of the doubt is given that our experiences are quite different due to many reasons, but mostly to the fact i am not a woman. i have relied on my eyes, ears, and a brain (all working perfectly fine still) to take in life and make sense of what i encounter, the years have come and gone. sure i wasn’t one of the guys who grew up with the modern women's movement, i’d be in my 40’s or something i guess, but i’m pretty sure nasa hasn’t quite had much first hand experience with jupiter, archeologists have never seen a dinosaur, and most cops don’t sit around having shoot outs all day. that sort of thing doesn’t convince me to tell them, historians, or anyone else whose knowledge is lacking of the experience that “they should shut up, they weren’t there, what could they possibly pretend know?”.
tell me i don’t know what it felt, or feels like, i’ll take your word for it. tell me i don’t know what i’m talking about, and i’ll call your bluff if it isn’t true.
you can use the gender argument on me in some degree, but this doesn’t just concern or involve women, i might be one of the people putting women through these experiences, you seem convinced that i likely am, so it’d be pretty hard to say i have no experience in the things that i partake in right? two people have sex and only one loses their virginity? i don’t see how that would figure out.
i don’t pretend to be an expert on this, i’m not even sure how much of this people are expected to know, but it has been an interest of mine to a significant enough degree that my curiosities have kept up with many answers. i’m not tarzan, i’ve been here all my life, i’ve been living life, i’ve done my homework.
the point here is simple, i’m not so ignorant and you as seem to wish or believe i am. believe it, or do not believe it, it doesn’t change the truth of it, whether i’m aggravated by your insinuations or not won’t change the truth of it either. if you’re only bring up stuff like “forms of ignorance” to further try and convince me of your intentions when you used the word ignorant, don’t bother. i know you weren’t insinuating i was stupid when you decided to bring the word ignorant into play, if you’re trying to convince me still of how benign you were being you can let it rest. you’ve insulted my values, ethics, and morals, but you’ve yet to insult my intelligence, even if you question it. it’s pretty obvious i can’t claim your experiences, if i could then perhaps i might hold different viewpoints, as it stands though, i haven’t lived your life, you haven’t lived mine; you’re also not susan b anthony and i’m not some belligerent sexist pig, sorry.
quote:
If you understood that, you might begin to understand not only what it feels like for a grown-assed woman to be, at best, thoughtlessly referred to as "girl,"
there’s this giant misconception again. since when was it thoughtless? i have habits yes, and i myself, like so many other people, am of course used to the word, but if you think i haven’t thought about it, and thought about it good and bloody hard, thought about it well beforehand of speaking out, which should have been evident in my very first post, well... then that’s thoughtless. i mean shit, i mentioned quite a few times that there’s little evidence that you actually read what i write before you respond to it, but if all you got out of my writing was that i am of the opinion that “hey i just always called em girls, dunno why... just always have and gonna keep on doin it” then you have officially sealed the deal, you just put the cherry on top, my inquiry is signed, dated, and ready to be filed. with as much as i’ve thought about it i’m utterly exhausted.
but... just in the thought of foresight, if you don’t think i am simply tossing the word around thoughtlessly, and you speak of other people that use it, why can’t that luxury be extended to anyone else? now you have good call to hate me using it on that grounds that while we don’t agree, i use it intently if sparingly, but the ones using it thoughtlessly have something of an innocence in their motives. though also keep in mind people use words that they have a definition for, even if it’s the wrong definition, they might not question themselves for saying it, and to you it might seem careless in the usage, but even if it is basically thoughtless, and they’re only using the term because that’s what other people have always used, you do not know, you cannot know that they are using it to belittle women, you are letting this term belittle you. in a case like that it would be pretty evident they aren’t calling a woman a girl, girl is woman to them.
from your viewpoint it’s only natural and expected you would still find offense in it, but to be honest and live up to your accusations of me being uncaring i’ll warn you ahead of time i’m about to literally sound this way. it is your problem, not theirs. it’s so much your problem that they don’t even have to be referring to you and you have a problem with it. it’s so much your problem that when benefit of the doubt suggests that it is not an insult, or a question of equality, just a word that to them means woman, it could be lovingly, you still have a problem with it. and i’m not saying you shouldn’t have a problem with it, but whose is the person than has the problem? i don’t mean to sound like i’m shirking care, but even if i am the one to say it, not just in an example like what i’ve been giving, but if in casual banter or something, somewhere, at sometime, if i say something such as, “i miss having a girl in my life”, and you’re offended by it, guess what? yeah, sorry, it’s still your problem.
if you get your rights infringed upon, i’m afraid that’s still your problem, yet that’s quite a different sort of problem though, and not something to be taken lightly, though forgiveness can be divine.
but offended by a word? all i can say is sorry that you feel that way. whether i’m the one to say it or not, when you’re offended by something not insulting, there’s not much i can apologize for. i learned early on you can’t please everyone, many times you end up displeasing people you had no intentions or desires to.
such as the case with us, i’m more than exceedingly aware you’ll be offended by it if i call you girl, so i would never refer to you as a girl. yet if i’m speaking to someone else, or of someone else, and i use the word girl, and i’m not being insulting, if you get offended by it, i’ll probably be sorry that it bothers you, that doesn’t mean i’ll be sorry for speaking or using the word at all, and i shouldn’t be.
now if i am being insulting, if i want to piss people off and you take offense to it, well hey mission accomplished right? if the goal was to be an asshole, i would have pulled it off. however, in both of these examples, how does the situation of whose problem it is change? sounds heartless i know, but it has to be said.
that’s not to say other people might not have a problem, and depending who has a problem with it i might end up being the one who has a problem, and might face the effects of it. it’s only to say everyone has their personal responsibilities.
what are you waiting for in life? censorship? for the words to change and everyone to be happy and loving and respectful to each other? for everyone to share your viewpoints? i don’t expect for the word girl to disappear. it is part of our language, it is part of our culture.
take this thread for example, if i was mr. sexist over here and i’m offending you with every word i say and every thing i do, are you going to sit there and wait for a moderator? the mod might never come, the mod might come but not see me as being out of line, the mod might see your intolerance of me, and being offended by me when i’m not out of conduct to be again, “your problem”. plenty of people sit around waiting for things to happen, some people want to see what happens despite what it means they’ll be sitting through. but at any time you can leave the site, you can leave the forum, ignore the thread or just my posts. you can close the browser, have your internet disconnected, throw your computer in the trash, go outside and cut the grass, watch a movie, go look at pictures, paint a landscape, or you can use the built in moderation tool the site provides you, you can click my name and block me forever. i won’t exist anymore. i can’t offend you anymore. you can piddle about the forums just as you always have while still getting away from what you find offensive. that’s called freedom. no one’s forcing you to read what i write (no pun this time). if you don’t like mtv, change the channel. if you don’t like mcdonalds don’t go there, no one is forcing mcnuggets down your throat. if you’re offended by something you can always just sit there, but if you want it to end it is your personal responsibility to act, you can either speak up in protest and attempt to convince others while you make your point, or you can get away from it, but you can’t impose your beliefs on them anymore than someone can impose their religion.
this only references people being offended by something, this says nothing about actually being mistreated. if you’re forced to work with another person, your ability to get a away from it is not the same as just flipping a channel, and no one should have to find a new job just to get away from it. this is why there are codes of conduct, this is why there are laws in place to protect against these sorts of things.
discrimination is a crime. harassment is a crime. offending people however, is not a crime.
every law takes away freedom, i’m not sorry to say that having the freedom of speech means we give up the right to not be offended. that’s a hell of a lot better than not having freedom of speech and still being offended. unpopular speech and beliefs are still protected, even if it's still unpopular. most of these quarrels raised are not even being driven by any real standards, it's driven by the personal desires of special interests groups. whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me, political correctness is just crippling people, if people can't handle words and differences of opinion, what the hell can they handle.
i’m not a criminal and i’m not about to apologize to every vegetarian because i eat meat. i’m not about to apologize to the amish because they’re offended by my tv. i’m not going to apologize to captain planet because he’s offended that i don’t drive a hybrid car or ride a bike everywhere. i’m not going to apologize to my father for not being like his other two sons. i’m not apologizing to gun control freaks that are offended that i own one. some steak houses are offended if you ask for steak sauce. some handicapped people are offended if you hold the door open for them or in any way give them special treatment. some people are offended by the way other’s dress. some people are offended by leather and fur products. some people are offended by religious beliefs. some people are offended by pornography. some people are offended by the marlboro man. some people are offended by bettie boop. loads of people are offended by chris rock. i’m willing to bet plenty of people are offending by things you say and do. are you going to tell me you apologize for, care, or even know all the things people are offended by on your part?
what am i really being told when i myself or others are asked to only use the word woman instead of girl? (this is definitely not the first time i’ve run into it) it’s not asking us to share sentiments, emotions, or compassion, it’s not asking that we change our behavior, it’s not asking that we treat each other with more respect, it’s not asking us to be nicer, it’s only asking that they we say something “they feel appropriate” when we feel like talking. they don't care about the meaning, only about the wording. it’s not advocating equality, it's only referring to each other as equals. it doesn’t matter if i speak with negativity, or how i look upon or treat others, they only want me to change the exact words, as if the words are what makes discourse hateful or unpleasant, they think the avoidance of certain words and the use of other words is going to indicate that other people understand, care, or share likeminded beliefs.
i can greatly insult someone with the most acceptable of words, i can also tell someone how much i love them in the most vulgar and profane wording.
what people are saying by these speech codes, political correctness, special protections, and double standards every time they’re integrated on behalf of some special interests group is that "you are too weak to live with freedom. you are too weak to live with the first amendment". it’s one thing to believe you’re being referred to or dumbed down to the status of a child, but if you’re reliant on the applications of these things... “if someone tells you, you are too weak to live with freedom, they have turned you into a child.”
can't remember the guys name, but i always did like that quote.
i’m sure the case is not, “what we’re allowed to do”, but what you find “we should do” to be respectful to yourself and all women. it’s not that i’m allowed to say girl or not, but that i choose to say woman or not you concern yourself with i assume. there’s not much ability in limiting speech, but (i hope) you want them to be respectful enough to change their speech on their own, otherwise there is no merit to their actions.
i know you hate that i at times will use the word girl, and i hate to burst your bubble but *pop* there’s not one case that i’ve referred to any of you as anything other than women. don’t you realize the multitude of reasons as to why that is? even if you or any other woman got me so pissed off that i lost my composure and started pissing off insults like george carlin, i still wouldn’t likely use the word girl. why? because i don’t want to instill negativity in the word like you have, to me it is an endearing term and i aim to keep it that way. my girl box is filled with amazing things, if anyone is going to ruin what that word means to me, i’m not going to be the one to do it.
a word is just a bunch of letters.
the meaning is what it means.
the message is the message.
i don’t need the dogmatic viewpoints of some “official” or 3rd party telling me what i will find or won’t find offensive by labeling certain terms politically correct; when it comes to what is offensive to me or not, i can figure that out for myself.
quote:
but both the political (memories of Hugo Chavez' `little girl' statement come to mind) and socioeconomic (the latest check at NOW's home page still show women earning 77-cents to every man's dollar - up from 50-cents in the 60's/70's) ramifications, as well. Again, context.
why i wonder, why did you bring up chavez in the first place? is he part of the united states, he live here, care about here, have any concern or even slight correlation to “here”? i don’t think being from south america makes him exactly “american”. despite the obvious apples and oranges, you bring him up as the prime example of thoughtlessly saying “girl”. now bear in mind i don’t know where he said it, i don’t care to go looking for it personally, but there’s a part of me that has this feeling that mr. respectable and loving chavez probably didn’t thoughtlessly say it. i don’t even know who he was referring to, but i’m willing to bet (the 2 cents i’m already giving) that his words were probably quite deliberate. and again you say in “context”, but this isn’t just a random occurrence of the use of the word girl, note the use of “little”, it implies the context, it marks an obvious insult.
i seem to remember talking about that in post #1 and especially post #2, but what is so ironic, is “little girl” is the exact phrase i used as an example when first speaking to you of ways to imply negative connotation in order to add insult, to make it insulted to people who wouldn’t be insulted by the word alone, and now here you are using it as if there is nothing implied, just inherent. but why then add in the word “little” in your example? why not just say chavez said “girl” in his memoirs? to drive the point home right? to make it clear to me what the use and meaning of the word girl is in this case, because otherwise it could be open to interpretation and mean anything. i mean... were you trying to help me prove my point with this example?
if he’s not talking about his seven year old daughter, yeah, it’s pretty bloody obvious he’s being insulting, he could have said “little woman” too and pulled off the same meaning. you really throw that word context around a lot, but in the context of the u. s. of a... what some socialist president does in his own country is pretty out of context. we have so many arguments going already, can we at least keep it relative to us who it pertains to now? i’m pretty sure we’re all aware of how many other countries are oppressive, and there are a hell of a lot worse ones than venezuela.
and... you do realize that while the census of numbers are put in a manner to show what women earn vs men, and then worded to say “women only make x% of every dollar men do”, that it does nothing to say it’s for the same jobs, same qualifications, that they earned the same promotions or raises, or how long they’ve held current positions, or gone through what eductation. basically, that it does little to signify discrimination.
it’s just a number, look at the forbes 400, and just calculate the same way using just those. forbes 400 women would only be making like a dime or something to every mans dollar. is miss walton being discriminated against because bill gates is richer? is wal-mart being discriminated against because they aren’t generating as much money as microsoft? don’t they have sam’s choice windows? or a great value wal-box console? should we force certain educations and careers on women to try and compensate, should we govern what they earn by forcing them to do things? do we need more affirmative action to help ensure qualifications of an individual is not of concern when getting hired?
that number could just as easily have shown men were making 1.24 to every woman’s dollar or something and changed the entire viewpoint, but the point is that number is just some statistic that serves little use in anything else than going “oh that’s interesting”. that number will never be equal until we all turn into communists, if that happens... i’d like to know what your major complaints would be then.
< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 4/28/2008 4:01:17 AM >
|
RE: What is the best way of getting the attention of a ... - 
Profile
RE: What is the best way of getting the attention of a ... - 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread