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RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 9:46:42 AM

DrummerDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goodpuddles

My concern is more about the whole heart stopping thing via hands around neck choking individual. How common is that side effect?

The side effect your talking about is carotid sinus death reflex, which is actually controversial and not proven*. The gist of it is that whenever your body feels oxygen deprived, the heart beats harder and the blood vessels constrict, which all serves to increase blood pressure. Eventually the hard just overloads and stops.

The bruising around the eyes is caused by excessive blood pressure actually breaking the capillaries around your eyes, nose, and cheeks. This happens when blood pressure is sufficient to push blood into your head (forcing its way past the blocking hand/noose/whatever) but not sufficient to push blood out- the blood pressure builds up (the feeling of "pressure" in your head) and the capillaries burst.

*Controversial doesn't mean not real. It does happen, but its connection with asphyxia play is weak at best. Theoretically, you should have a chance of CSDR setting in just from holding your breath.

(in reply to goodpuddles)

Post #: 41

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 10:08:50 AM

angelikaJ

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From the same jay Wiseman article:
"...Quick pathophysiology lesson # 1: When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical repolarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threating and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can you tell when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't. ...

...Some people teach that choking can be safely done if pressure on the windpipe is avoided. Their belief is that pressing on the arteries leading to the brain while avoiding pressure on the windpipe can safely cause unconsciousness. The reality, unfortunately, is that pressing on the carotid arteries, _exactly_ as they recommend, presses on baroreceptors known as the carotid sinus bodies. These bodies then cause vasodilation in the brain, thus there is not enough blood to perfuse the brain and the recipient loses consciousness. However, that's not the whole story.

Unfortunately, a message is also sent to the main pacemaker of the heart, via the vagus nerve, to decrease the rate and force of the heartbeat. Most of the time, under strong vagal influence, the rate and force of the heartbeat decreases by one third. However, every now and then, the rate and force decreases to zero and the bottom "flatlines" into asystole -- another, and more difficult to treat, form of cardiac arrest. There is no way to tell whether or not this will happen in any particular instance, or how quickly. There are many documented cases of as little as five seconds of choking causing a vagal-outflow-induced cardiac arrest. ..."
( http://members.aol.com/Oldrope/breath.htm )

(in reply to DrummerDom)

Post #: 42

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 10:49:24 AM

Constrictor1

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From: Constrictor1
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Thank you angelikaj. I was wondering when someone would actually approach the PVC issue. this is to me the crux of the HIDDEN danger to breathplay. ( the overt have already been brought up.) You are apparently in the medical field with a more than extensive knowledge of the subject. Are there any real world statistical numbers for the chances of a particular person being susceptable to PVCs? Not trying to badger just looking to learn more about the risks to something I do. I have done a lot of research already but would like more if you would be willing to share.

Constrictor

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 43

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 10:54:34 AM

softness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

As leatherist said. It is 100% safe until it kills you and then it is 100% lethal.

I used to laugh at the safety police about this issue as I had done it with lots of people and never had an issue. Then I did it and someone wents into spasms, started to pass out and collapse. SCARED THE LIVING FUCK OUT OF ME!!!!!!

But the look on your face when I came to was when I realized how you felt about me... That and the fact that you refused when I requested we do it again...

I swear to god the woman DID ask to do it again. Here I am, on the second visit with this woman, rapidly realizing she is the love of my life and I am holding her spasming collapsing body and when she comes to, I am fucking terrified and she is "that was cool"...

goes to show this post to someone

seeeeeeeeeee its *not* just me!

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 44

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 10:58:14 AM

DarkVictory

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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

As leatherist said. It is 100% safe until it kills you and then it is 100% lethal.

I used to laugh at the safety police about this issue as I had done it with lots of people and never had an issue. Then I did it and someone wents into spasms, started to pass out and collapse. SCARED THE LIVING FUCK OUT OF ME!!!!!!

But the look on your face when I came to was when I realized how you felt about me... That and the fact that you refused when I requested we do it again...

I swear to god the woman DID ask to do it again. Here I am, on the second visit with this woman, rapidly realizing she is the love of my life and I am holding her spasming collapsing body and when she comes to, I am fucking terrified and she is "that was cool"...

goes to show this post to someone

seeeeeeeeeee its *not* just me!

I already feel that way about you, and you so totally do NOT have my agreement or alignment in doing any kind of breath play. Full-fucking-stop. Clear? Now make me pancakes.

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 45

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:00:02 AM

softness

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*hands him pancakes ... and makes my throat look all exposed and vulnerable and stuff*

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(in reply to DarkVictory)

Post #: 46

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:04:32 AM

angelikaJ

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I met Jay Wiseman last month at a luncheon...he discussed this at some length.

One of the things that he said he found to be very distressing is that many people who present on the topic of breath play do not have basic knowledge of physiology...for example they do not understand the role of the vagus nerve plays...(often not even knowing what it is.).

I recommend reading his articles on the topic.

( http://members.aol.com/OldRope/breamain.htm )

I don't think there is a way of predicting it...not from what I have read.

I am not in the medical field (although have had some previous background) but retain this type of stuff and am glad to provide the available links.

(in reply to Constrictor1)

Post #: 47

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:13:38 AM

Blueangel45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodpuddles

puddles understands there are risks associated, and that it's a bit of edge play, but exactly how dangerous is this activity?

In my opinion, when the risks = death then it's more than just a bit of edge play, it IS edge play. How dangerous? As dangerous as any activity where an 'ooops' could result in death or permanent brain damage. Yes, there are people who engage in this activity and are here to tell about it. i suspect those for whom it didn't work out so well aren't here to speak about their bad experience.

i couldn't agree more. It has only been done to me once and that was when i was in subspace for the first time ever and had already explained to him that chocking was a hard limit. i passed out and had no memory of it. My opinion is better alive than not breathing.

Take care,
blue

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 48

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:25:41 AM

casud0777

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Joined: 4/12/2008
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I enjoy light choking, I was with this one girl, who liked having her air supplied shortened during sex, at the height of her orgasm, so light choking is good, even though it did make me a little nervous. But im liking the readings and opinions on this, didn't they say that some men got erectiosn when being choked to death?

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 49

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:34:37 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodpuddles
but how safe is choking?

Unless you have a really decent idea of what your hands are on, and what you might be putting pressure on... its dangerous. The accidental injuries are as formidible as the intentional ones. I have choked Fox, for seconds at a time, and only after having done a lot of studying onn how and wht can be safely touched. I studied this when I was in the martial arts, ore as a way to know where I could effectively hit someone in the throat to damage but not kill. There are an amazing number of highly dangerous spots.
Ifts very exciting, can be very erotic, but can also be taking far more of a risk than you care to be doing.

DV

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(in reply to goodpuddles)

Post #: 50

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:44:44 AM

Daddyslilpookie

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From: OC, California
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I enjoy light choking also, but not to the point I can't breathe

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(in reply to casud0777)

Post #: 51

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 11:44:44 AM

ThinkingKitten

Posts: 447
Joined: 6/15/2006
From: Ontari-ari-o
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FR:
OP: you can't just stop at the risks of the act from a physical standpoint, because that is only half the story. The risks continue with collateral effects, if damage/death occurs. Does the choker want to face prison time? Can the choker deal with/accept a long prison sentence afterwards? Even if death was proven "semi-accidental", be hard to get away scot-free with it for the choker. Is the choker fully prepared and emotionally equipped to deal with the psychological effects of having been the cause of such damage/death? (Personally if the choker answers "Yes" to that question, I don't think I'd want to be around them). Can the chokee accept the effects on friends and family? Leaving grieving parents behind? Maybe leaving dependents? Does the chokee have sufficient insurance coverage to pay for the rest of a life spent in a hospital bed with 24/7 nursing care - could add up to millions, easily.

There's more to consider here, than just the physical impact of the play.

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(in reply to casud0777)

Post #: 52

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 12:11:51 PM

BitaTruble

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One of the risks I haven't seen mentioned yet is carbon dioxide (C02) build up in the blood stream and lungs if you don't exhale. The average adult human takes anywhere from 15 to 25 breathes per minute. The oxygen begins to diffuse into the cells rather quickly and returns C02 as the waste product which needs to leave the body. Don't let it leave, you're getting to play with poison. Exactly how fast the C02 is building, how much is safe for any particular body to be able to regulate and for how long are all unknown variables. You can't assess a risk which has unknown variables. When you begin to turn all those lovely shades of red, blue/purple, that's not from lack of oxygen, it's from C02 build-up, which can kill you - or put you into perm subspace in the form of a vegative state.

Celeste

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Post #: 53

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 1:52:01 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

One of the risks I haven't seen mentioned yet is carbon dioxide (C02) build up in the blood stream and lungs if you don't exhale. The average adult human takes anywhere from 15 to 25 breathes per minute. The oxygen begins to diffuse into the cells rather quickly and returns C02 as the waste product which needs to leave the body. Don't let it leave, you're getting to play with poison. Exactly how fast the C02 is building, how much is safe for any particular body to be able to regulate and for how long are all unknown variables. You can't assess a risk which has unknown variables. When you begin to turn all those lovely shades of red, blue/purple, that's not from lack of oxygen, it's from C02 build-up, which can kill you - or put you into perm subspace in the form of a vegative state.

Celeste

It is covered at length in the link I posted.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 54

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 2:22:55 PM

BitaTruble

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Ah, I didn't read the link.

N/m then!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 55

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 2:26:25 PM

Prinsexx

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I've read the thread through.
Knowing about the dangers doesn't detract from it being very fkn hot....but then knowing about danger never did take away anything's appeal....quite the reverse in fact.
Sorry..........

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Post #: 56

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 2:44:49 PM

chellekitty

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it's not at all dangerous because people don't really do that, neither do they suspend people by ropes (in bondage, not nooses), nor do they hit each other with a huge variety of impliments - floggers, whips, canes (sticks), paddles, whatever they can get their hands on, etc, and omg, they definately don't cut or pierce eachother....we never do anything dangerous in this lifestyle...the way the responses have gone in this thread you would think that choking was a death sentence...

that being said, yes there are risks, yes they can be deadly...but so can driving and walking and pretty much anything that involves leaving the house and heck a lot of things that don't involve leaving the house...so...suck it up, if it trips your trigger, learn about what you're doing...and umm sorry, this is a great forum, there is a lot of knowledge on these boards, but there isn't one person on here that can reach throug the computer and show you on your throat where those spots are that can cause the euphoric feeling (which is actually brain cells dying from lack of oxygen, much like the euphoric feeling you get from drug use from the brain cells dying...but i still do it anyway on ocassion) to passing out to killing a person...soooo get off your duff and get to someone that can teach you in person...if you want to just learn the kinky shit, that means going to a scene-thing and getting to know someone who has experience in it, otherwise that means you're going to have to learn some more stuff, martial arts was pointed out as a good key to some breath play skills...i think medical school is a little much, but if thats your kink..go for it...

chelle

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 57

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 3:00:33 PM

IvyMorgan

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I think I prefer being smothered to being choked, but I do like being choked during the sex-thing.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 58

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 3:16:38 PM

MontrealPhoenix

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that being said, yes there are risks, yes they can be deadly...but so can driving and walking and pretty much anything that involves leaving the house and heck a lot of things that don't involve leaving the house...so...suck it up

The problem with what you're saying is that while we do need to accept the risks of driving, walking and such, it's necessary for us to take these risks to take unless we want to stay indoors, which most of us cannot do. The risks associated with breath play are however avoidable as we don't need breath play to get on with life. So you see your arguement doesn't really hold up, chelle.

Phoenix

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(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 59

RE: choking... the real dangers? - 4/20/2008 3:25:58 PM

chellekitty

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and the rest of the paragraph was important too, not just what you copied...here i will shorten it for you...

that being said, yes there are risks, yes they can be deadly...but so can driving and walking and pretty much anything that involves leaving the house and heck a lot of things that don't involve leaving the house...so...suck it up, if it trips your trigger, learn about what you're doing...and umm sorry, this is a great forum, there is a lot of knowledge on these boards, but there isn't one person on here that can reach through the computer [and show you how to do it safely]..soooo get off your duff and get to someone that can teach you in person...

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 4/20/2008 3:26:24 PM >

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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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Post #: 60

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