RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign

RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (Full Version)

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Dtesmoac -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/22/2008 2:48:33 PM)
Where do guns and god fit in the bible together? Absolute faith used to be Europes problem now it is absolute sceptism, after living in both societies neither is right or necessarily better than the other.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/22/2008 3:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Amerika is indeed a concept, an ideal, a goal, but Amerikans are not. Americans have cultural characteristics that are as evident and observable as do Germans or Italians or Mexicans. I agree with this. What’s up with the “k’s”? confused face quote: My travels have led me to understand that American Exceptional ism is a flawed ideology. My lack there of, has painfully shown me how complicated humans like to make things. The goal is not so difficult. It simply means “to love all”. I’m missing the connection between your point and my post. If you wouldn’t mind helping a girl out. k Amerika is the German spelling. I do that sometimes, just like I capitalize nouns sometimes. As for the rest, we may very well be talking at cross-purposes. Here's a good essay on Ami exceptionalism (AmE from now on, k?): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/americanexceptionalism.htm Here's the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism If you would rephrase, or clarify, your post so I can understand what you mean, we might could be on the same page.

charmdpetKeira -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/22/2008 6:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster If you would rephrase, or clarify, your post so I can understand what you mean, we might could be on the same page. I believe I have an understanding of what you are saying. The articles seem to be pointing out how we started with a goal, “Liberty and Justice for all”, and have gone in the complete opposite direction. Yes? The point I was trying to make in my original post to Firm, was that it is unwise to blame the person holding the mirror, if what we see is ugly. If what we see isn’t ugly, again, there is no point in blaming who ever is holding the mirror. I’m of the mind, it’s ugly. Not because everyone is doing the things mentioned in the quote provided in the OP, but because every time we shrug off the actions that go against the goal, we are in effect saying; it is acceptable. America is unique, but not for the reason(s) many hang their purpose on. First, because it is the place where all others connect; if my information is accurate, there is no such thing as a full blooded American, because even the Native Americans migrated from elsewhere. (irrelevant to the main point) Second is the goal, as I mentioned before, simply defined it means “to love all”. I have not noticed anyone pointing this out before, so I will now; in all religious beliefs I have heard of, claiming some understanding of a “one true god” the message all points to one thing; love. Love of self, fellow man, and nature. Dare I say it; the one true religion is LOVE; period. No books, no buildings, no creed required; only truth, acceptance, respect and responsibility. The third reason America is unique, is because it has become “the mouse trap”. Those who are repressed come to us for help, and we harness them to “the wheel”. Which those of us who are born here, are already connected to. Those who stand at a distance, try to show us we are headed in the wrong direction, but since we have been lied to for so long, we just can’t seem to believe it is true, or are too proud to admit we are wrong. Our goal, and our conviction toward that goal, is being used against us. The Matrix is real, people, and we are connected to it by money. k

subfever -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/22/2008 10:44:47 PM)
quote: No books, no buildings, no creed required; only truth, acceptance, respect and responsibility. If we go that far, there would then be no need for: fences, walls, borders, government, or countries. Sounds pretty good to me.

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/22/2008 11:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac Where do guns and god fit in the bible together? Absolute faith used to be Europes problem now it is absolute sceptism, after living in both societies neither is right or necessarily better than the other. OK Off topic. Being sceptical about something there is no evidence for is not absolute scepticism. It is being rational. It is worrying when leaders who are supposed to be making rational decisions for the benefit of the whole community (OK, I know that never happens) is being informed by an irrational belief system. My guess is that many American politicians don't believe in god or are extremely sceptical but daren't admit to it because it would be political suicide. In Britain and north Europe (which is not the whole of Europe), scepticism is the order of the day. I do notice that in the votes of integrity like the disclosure of personal allowances in the EU, it is the sceptical north Europeans that vote for declaration and its the religious southern and eastern Europe that vote for secrecy. No doubt god will forgive them in confession. Southern Europe is absolutely corrupt and that is where religion is strongest. I liken it to the bible belt and American fundementalists, corruption and blindness and lacking basic human empathy.

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/22/2008 11:12:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver That looks like an interesting book. (LONG ASS URL REDUCED and properly linked) The writer which FKY quotes suggests that Americans don't vote in their own best interest and now you point out a book where the writer has recognized this phenomenon. Perhaps the change Obama is talking about is that ordinary Americans will start to vote for their own best interests instead of big business and their military buddies. Any time anyone starts talking about "false consciousness" and "not acting in your own interest" when it comes to politics, I start to smell the aroma of BS in the air. Firm Any objective analysis of ordinary Americans shows they do vote against their own self interest. Otherwise why vote for a President who gives the rich tax cuts at the expense of the middleclass. You lauded the quote you posted and it is your lauded commentator that suggested Americans vote against their own interest and it was cloudboy(an American) who pointed out a writer (an American) who wrote an analysis of it he claimsed to have witnessed in his home state. I don't know how you can call it a false consciousness. I think many Europeans do look at ordinary Americans and are rather surprised by how they fall into line and vote for the interests of the rich instead of their own interests.

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/22/2008 11:17:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Americans live in a system where marital infidelity is a impeachable offense (when lied about) and war crimes are excusable. Well marital infidelity is no longer a political crime here but I am still shocked that people like Blair can walk away without facing criminal charges for taking the country into an illegal war. According to the criteria of the Nurmberg trials, he would be hanged. Instead, he gets a lucrative pension.

Dtesmoac -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 12:26:44 AM)
OK Off topic. My guess is that many American politicians don't believe in god or are extremely sceptical but daren't admit to it because it would be political suicide. The everyday reference to bible, church, chritianity, relgion etc in US was very noticable, but as a colleague of mine pointed out for many it is very superficial and whilst they "believe they are believers" they don't really link together there money at all costs, winning at all costs, status symbol obseeion with what the bible actually says. For them there is no anomally but as an observer the very open hypocrasy is noticable. Blair couldn't speak of God because then he would not be electable, the presidential candidates have to demonstrate belief or they would not be electable. In Britain and north Europe (which is not the whole of Europe), scepticism is the order of the day. I do notice that in the votes of integrity like the disclosure of personal allowances in the EU, it is the sceptical north Europeans that vote for declaration and its the religious southern and eastern Europe that vote for secrecy. But UK righteous Scots in parliament have had there snouts in the trough more than most, and the public is so, so sceptical of everything that now the concept og a truthful politican or an honest mistake of judgement "can not exist". I liken it to the bible belt and American fundementalists, corruption and blindness and lacking basic human empathy. Combined with the belief in the myth that the American dream is possible for everyone, the few exceptions to the rule from the poor areas appear to be used to justify perpetuation of the lie. When most Americans in many areas are struggling to make ends meet, living in appalling housing, going without health care etc, which in the USA national conciance seams almost acceptable but in other developed countries (whilst it is present) is considered something to hide or be ashamed of. So Obama's quote and your reference to lack of empathy go together. The winning at the expense of others aproach in the US means the self-righteous, gun-totin, miliatary-lovin, gay-hating etc Americans described by Obama are prety much mainstram in large parts of some American areas. He just missed of the "and proud to be so" bit.

NorthernGent -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 2:07:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac means the self-righteous, gun-totin, miliatary-lovin, gay-hating etc Americans described by Obama are prety much mainstram in large parts of some American areas. He just missed of the "and proud to be so" bit. It would be a surprise were there not such a group of reactionary types in every country. I suppose what you describe above is people clinging to their view of the US and are quite probably averse to change; well, this isn't exclusive to the US. Self-righteous? You'd have a hard job proving this. Gun-totin? You could give this a positive or negative spin depending on point of view. Gay-hating? As I understand it, gay lads and lasses do ok in the US; assuming the accusation is that there are parts of the US where you wouldn't want to walk 'round declaring your homosexuality, then the same applies in England. The contintental Europeans lay similar accusations at the English - "xenophobic, aggressive, afflicted by a love of casual violence, insular, binge drinking etc". While there are people who would marry up with these claims, it's fair to say it does not reflect the majority. Ultimately, you are going to get reactionary types in any country; I'd suggest this isn't a useful indicator of a nation's standing. A point aside: Firm, excellent use of the message boards for your playing to the gallery routine, pal........you must have been lost for a response to some of us on your "significant progress" thread.

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 3:14:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac means the self-righteous, gun-totin, miliatary-lovin, gay-hating etc Americans described by Obama are prety much mainstram in large parts of some American areas. He just missed of the "and proud to be so" bit. Ultimately, you are going to get reactionary types in any country; I'd suggest this isn't a useful indicator of a nation's standing. Being reactionary and being proud of ones ignorance are two completely different things. A conservative tends to be reactionary but can still be as upstanding as any other member of a community, being proud of basically being a redneck is quite different. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Europeans lay similar accusations at the English - "xenophobic, aggressive, afflicted by a love of casual violence, insular, binge drinking etc". Yep. We get bus loads of those over here every weekend and they tick every box unfortunately.

NorthernGent -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 3:28:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Being reactionary and being proud of ones ignorance are two completely different things. Insitinctively, the latter follows the former. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Yep. We get bus loads of those over here every weekend and they tick every box unfortunately. Of course, and you don't think these people are proud of their xenophobia and aggression toward all things they deem to be un-English in thought and practice? The point is that a nation of 48 million people has exported so much to the world - could a nation of xenophobes and binge drinkers achieve this? Surely the same applies to the subject in the OP?

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 4:02:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The point is that a nation of 48 million people has exported so much to the world - could a nation of xenophobes and binge drinkers achieve this? Surely the same applies to the subject in the OP? Unfortunately a nation's achievements are rarely celebrated as much as a nation's negative attributes. In the extreme, Germany will always be remembered first and foremost for the holocaust and onlyt secondly for its artistic and scientific achievements. Britain will always be remembered first and foremost for its empire. The Frencdh for their revolution and attempt at the conquest of Europe.

NorthernGent -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 4:50:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Unfortunately a nation's achievements are rarely celebrated as much as a nation's negative attributes. In the extreme, Germany will always be remembered first and foremost for the holocaust and onlyt secondly for its artistic and scientific achievements. Britain will always be remembered first and foremost for its empire. The Frencdh for their revolution and attempt at the conquest of Europe. 'Seems like we're coming 'round to the idea that perception isn't always everything - including with regard to the OP subject matter.

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 5:00:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Unfortunately a nation's achievements are rarely celebrated as much as a nation's negative attributes. In the extreme, Germany will always be remembered first and foremost for the holocaust and onlyt secondly for its artistic and scientific achievements. Britain will always be remembered first and foremost for its empire. The Frencdh for their revolution and attempt at the conquest of Europe. 'Seems like we're coming 'round to the idea that perception isn't always everything - including with regard to the OP subject matter. Perception isn't everything but it tends to be accepted as everything as we rush around our day. I will be having a liquid lunch with several expat Americans that are part of my circle of friends and if they were god lovin' gun toting, gay-loathin', foreigner-despisin', nonpassport ownin' rednecks, I wouldn't have anything to do with them. (I purpoisely left out sister -marryin' because one has a sister I wouldn't blame him for wanting to marry). No doubt, FKY and CO would call these Americans communists if they were in America, since they admire the healthcare, education and transport services here. We are all guilty of stereotyping, even you NG but I will spare both you the embarrassment and me the time of lifting some of your posts.[;)]

charmdpetKeira -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/23/2008 6:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: No books, no buildings, no creed required; only truth, acceptance, respect and responsibility. If we go that far, there would then be no need for: fences, walls, borders, government, or countries. Sounds pretty good to me. Yes, well, it would be a long time coming, and a lot of hard work to get there. There is one other factor I forgot to mention that prevents us from getting there; fear. k

charmdpetKeira -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/23/2008 6:51:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver My guess is that many American politicians don't believe in god or are extremely sceptical but daren't admit to it because it would be political suicide. I am of the understanding this is inaccurate. If you can get your hands on an American 1$ bill, look in the dirt under the pyramid, I believe that is a portrait of their god; and if I’m not mistaken, it looks like there might be a portrait of Leviathan next to him(?). k

subfever -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/23/2008 7:23:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira Yes, well, it would be a long time coming, and a lot of hard work to get there. Indeed it will... considering that we haven't even gotten to the truth yet.

charmdpetKeira -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', for (4/23/2008 7:27:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira Yes, well, it would be a long time coming, and a lot of hard work to get there. Indeed it will... considering that we haven't even gotten to the truth yet. lol.... Ah man, you made me snort. [:-] Good point. k

Dtesmoac -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/26/2008 1:54:54 PM)
[/quote] It would be a surprise were there not such a group of reactionary types in every country. agreed I suppose what you describe above is people clinging to their view of the US and are quite probably averse to change; well, this isn't exclusive to the US. agreed Self-righteous? You'd have a hard job proving this. On average after three beers with average Bob in a bar and I think we can get this from 60% of middle America. Gun-totin? You could give this a positive or negative spin depending on point of view. Gay-hating? As I understand it, gay lads and lasses do ok in the US; assuming the accusation is that there are parts of the US where you wouldn't want to walk 'round declaring your homosexuality, then the same applies in England. The contintental Europeans lay similar accusations at the English - "xenophobic, aggressive, afflicted by a love of casual violence, insular, binge drinking etc". While there are people who would marry up with these claims, it's fair to say it does not reflect the majority. Ultimately, you are going to get reactionary types in any country; I'd suggest this isn't a useful indicator of a nation's standing. It is how the rest of the mainstream, the media and general public react to such opinions that is more improtant than the extreme views of a few. What would be considred extreme views elsewhere in the world are more palatable and commonly stated in US than for example Europe. Also the wider social spectrum of people that are willing to voice them.

meatcleaver -> RE: self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreign (4/27/2008 4:19:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac The contintental Europeans lay similar accusations at the English - "xenophobic, aggressive, afflicted by a love of casual violence, insular, binge drinking etc". While there are people who would marry up with these claims, it's fair to say it does not reflect the majority. Ultimately, you are going to get reactionary types in any country; I'd suggest this isn't a useful indicator of a nation's standing. It is how the rest of the mainstream, the media and general public react to such opinions that is more improtant than the extreme views of a few. What would be considred extreme views elsewhere in the world are more palatable and commonly stated in US than for example Europe. Also the wider social spectrum of people that are willing to voice them. This is my experience in America and this was a typical experience, I had a few beers and chatted with my brother's friends (all university educated) and was amazed at the extreme views that were being espoused after a few drinks on such things as race, immigration and foreign policy (which normally amounted to bombing the fuck out of some inferior race) and the one guy who spoke out against them was ridiculed mercilessly. I was typically dismissed as a commie. Certainly their is no mainstream media that we in Europe call left of centre. American media dismissed as liberal are firmly moderate right of centre by European standards. No doubt this all comes down to history and experience. After twice destroying our own continent with extreme views, we are not in a hurry to do it a thrid time by contenancing extremist views as legitimately mainstream.

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