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ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

Obviously the vanilla world tolerates a lot of risk without considering the individuals "crazy" enough to be stopped.

So why is it in bdsm people assume adults are incompetent because there is a risk of death or injury involved?

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ORIGINAL: Seniorwolf

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As long as a BDSM activity is between (or among) fully-informed and consenting people of legal age and with the mental capacity to understand what they are consenting to, and as long as the activity does not physically or mentally harm other living beings

I agree with you Poetry but what is in question here is the "mental" capacity of the individual. Do we consider suicidal tendencies to be a fetish? If someone said, "Poetry, could you help me with my suicide play?", "I have a loaded pistol and all you have to do is pull the trigger." Lets flip the script, "I want to become an amputee!" "Please help me cit my legs off at the knee!" Now, do you think this person has thought the whole act through? Did they take into consideration if their medical will cover their life expenses once the act is commited? How about, who will take care of them once they are  disabled?

This is one of those gray areas where fantasy goes south. It is ok to roleplay, in my book, being an amputee but beyond that, I would have to seriously doubt the person's mental faculties. But this is my opinion and nothing more.

Not to be pedantic, but assisting in a suicide would nullify the suicide.And welcome to the forums!

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I would say that anything that risks eye injuries for someone with implants in the eye, or a history of detached retina is something that isn't ever okay.

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ORIGINAL: Seniorwolf

This is one of those gray areas where fantasy goes south. It is ok to roleplay, in my book, being an amputee but beyond that, I would have to seriously doubt the person's mental faculties. But this is my opinion and nothing more.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I think some things are inherently risky to a point that safety precautions just aren't good enough.

I would say that anything that risks eye injuries for someone with implants in the eye, or a history of detached retina is something that isn't ever okay.

With immediate hospitalization and surgery by a top notch opthalmic surgeon, a detached retina can be successfully repaired. Once.

The chances of successful reattachment goes down each time you try it.

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Not to be pedantic, but assisting in a suicide would nullify the suicide.And welcome to the forums!

Lol as I reread what I wrote, I noticed my error as well It went from a suicide to a murder fantasy. I should have worded as an assisted suicide fantasy. Thanks for the welcome. I have been around for a while but didn't have time to participate. :) Now, I have all the time in the world!

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ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

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ORIGINAL: madshysoul

the entire scene has been discussed ahead of time

And what of those where trust takes the place of discussion?

What of sub/slaves who do not wish to have a say in what is about to occur, and do not wish to have advance notice, but merely trust that their dom/master loves them and will abide by whatever safety concerns seems appropriate?

What you've described may make sense in chance encounters between virtual strangers, but makes no sense within the context of a loving LTR. Consent, ground-rules etc are not re-negotiated scene by scene, but are laid down in the beginning and understood thereafter.

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Would you doubt the mental faculties or consider someone to be mentally defective if they lived their lives in fear of the spankings of an imaginary parent figure deity for eating pork when a book told them not to?

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How about someone who fasted himself to death to reach the magical wonderland of Nirvana where everything is peaceful? Is that a sign of mental illness?

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ORIGINAL: tsatske

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Would you doubt the mental faculties or consider someone to be mentally defective if they lived their lives in fear of the spankings of an imaginary parent figure deity for eating pork when a book told them not to?

according to the DSMV, no. Religion can not be used as a sign of mental illness, in the absence of other symptoms, such as self harm, or the harm of others, or delusional lack of self awareness (such as not being aware that when you kill skin and eat your neighbors cat on their front lawn they are not going to be grateful to you for saving them from the cat's obvious demonic possession and bravely taking upon yourself. It is the delusional view of the world that is symptomatic.) If I tell my Psche that the aliens kidnapped me, that is not sufficient to diagnose me. That belief must be associated with, or be causing, other symptomatic behavior, no matter how sure the psche feels that the aliens did not, in fact, kidnap me.
When I told my Pschytrist in Philly that I would not tolerate pschotopic meds which made the trees stop talking to me, he asked me specific questions about the experience of communicating with trees, and then explained to me that thatdid not fit the definition of a hallucination ( a hallucination includes elements of compulsion or delusion, for instance, and is not experienced as a spiritual or religious experience in the absence of those types of symptoms).
Not all psches would agree. The last time I required hospitalization, i had an ongoing argument with the idiotic doctor assigned to me by the hospital, who kept trying to stop my auditory hallucination (with trees), which i kept telling him were religious experiences, not hallucination. I finally said, 'I can't help it that the trees chose not to talk to you!'
My dear therapist in Philly said she had running arguments with the staff of the center about the state of my 'hallucination'. She said, her co-workers would say to her 'Come on, she believes in fairies!' and she would answer, 'yea, but I belive in Angels.'

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How about someone who fasted himself to death to reach the magical wonderland of Nirvana where everything is peaceful? Is that a sign of mental illness?

This is a harder question. If he did it simply to reach Nirvana, then that probably is symptomatic. If he did it for more reasons than that, well, is every person who ever goes on a political or religious hunger strike crazy? I don't happen to believe so, if their reasons are not delusional. (Delusional does not mean, i disagree, or the psche disagrees, or most people disagree. It means, clearly not in accord with objective reality.)

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ORIGINAL: Seniorwolf

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As long as a BDSM activity is between (or among) fully-informed and consenting people of legal age and with the mental capacity to understand what they are consenting to, and as long as the activity does not physically or mentally harm other living beings

I agree with you Poetry but what is in question here is the "mental" capacity of the individual. Do we consider suicidal tendencies to be a fetish? If someone said, "Poetry, could you help me with my suicide play?", "I have a loaded pistol and all you have to do is pull the trigger."

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Lets flip the script, "I want to become an amputee!" "Please help me cit my legs off at the knee!" Now, do you think this person has thought the whole act through? Did they take into consideration if their medical will cover their life expenses once the act is commited? How about, who will take care of them once they are  disabled?

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ORIGINAL: tsatske
I am Diabetic. Last November I had a foot infection in which I thought I might lose my foot. It is basically healed, but, I mean, it is six effin months later, and I am still using the word 'basically' in that sentence.
We play with Bastinado. I wear heels - sometimes very high ones. ect. ect.
Is this 'not ever okay'? Do you not believe that I am aware of the risks, or do you simply believe that it is not my place to make a decision on those risks?
I have a friend who is Asthmatic, who does breath play with her Master. (see questions above).
How long would the list be, or how would you word the restriction, to tell others when you are going to judge the risk to great, and no longer let them be the judge, for themselves?

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ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

since I believe ... then they would be examples of YKINOK.

Exactly.

Personal prejudice dictates YKINOK.

It is not an objective judgment, but purely subjective.

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There isn't even an objective way of determining exactly what the risk is for any potential outcome, as accidents, if any, are vastly under-reported.

So we are imagining what the odds are of any given risk actually occurring, not taking into account the individuals who are actively involved and their awareness/ability in managing those risks.

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Regarding your example of assisted-suicide, I will point out that the state of Oregon approved this, last I recall (tho' I stipulate the conditions for approval are quite stringent and would exclude anything conjured by Leatherist's example).

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While I personally would not participate, what if someone with terminal cancer wanted to go out in a blaze of glory instead of slowly suffering in a hospital bed till the end?

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Assuming, as dictated by the OP, that the individual was competent and consenting, what would be the legitimate objection by outsiders?

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ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain

Suicide-by-another is cowardice

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ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain


Suicide-by-another is cowardice, anyway, and asking someone else to pull the trigger makes it not suicide but inflicting murder on someone else.

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

since I believe ... then they would be examples of YKINOK.

Exactly.

Personal prejudice dictates YKINOK.

It is not an objective judgment, but purely subjective.

Hey Bob...if you are going to quote me, then don't take me out of context to prove your point.  The full quote was this...
This is why I also disagree with the idea of "consenting to be killed".  Sorry...in my opinion, anyone consenting to be killed in this sort of play is NOT operating with a full deck and since I believe that murder is wrong and that suicide-by-another is wrong...and they are definitely illegal...then they would be examples of YKINOK. 

Please take note of the portion I have put into bold.  That is an OBJECTIVE statement, not subjective and it is that portion of the statement, more than my subjective feelings about it, that would rule it out for me or anyone I am about to observe doing it or anyone I hear of doing it.

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There isn't even an objective way of determining exactly what the risk is for any potential outcome, as accidents, if any, are vastly under-reported.

So we are imagining what the odds are of any given risk actually occurring, not taking into account the individuals who are actively involved and their awareness/ability in managing those risks.

Sorry Bob, but you are wrong again.  Every product that comes out is product-tested and adjusted and reconfigured before it ever hits the market.

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Now...for most activities in BDSM, I will say this...you are right in stating that I have absolutely no idea what you are capable of given that there is no licensing board for dominants or submissives.  None whatsoever.  I have only your word that you are good at what you do or even expert at what you do.  That still does not stop me from stating this:  when it comes down to killing someone, whether it be murder or death-by-another as some sort of BDSM play...whether or not the one asking it to be done or wanting to do it is in full possession of their mental faculties...it is still illegal.  Now, if a submissive wants to trust you to tie them up, shit on them, leave them staked to the ground until fire ants come to clean up the defecation and bite the submissive until she is sick...then hey, not MY thing but if the odds are in her favor (she won't die due to exposure or some unknown allergy to fire ant bites or whatever), then go for it.

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Regarding your example of assisted-suicide, I will point out that the state of Oregon approved this, last I recall (tho' I stipulate the conditions for approval are quite stringent and would exclude anything conjured by Leatherist's example).

Yeah...quite stringent.  The reason for the suicide have to be proven and deemed to be medically viable reasons and it has to be done at the direction of a doctor.  Hardly fits most BDSM play scenes, does it?

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While I personally would not participate, what if someone with terminal cancer wanted to go out in a blaze of glory instead of slowly suffering in a hospital bed till the end?

Then, quite frankly, they should have the balls to do it without involving someone else in it that will be left to face the consequences of either having to defend themselves against, at best assisted suicide and at worst, murder.

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Assuming, as dictated by the OP, that the individual was competent and consenting, what would be the legitimate objection by outsiders?

The legitimate objection would be the law.  Like it or not, Bob...we are governed by them.  And until they change the laws, the legitimate objections remain.  Scientifically, the objection would be that we do not have the legitimacy to determine whether or not this is something the person wants in the long term or is seeking in a moment of desperation.  That is why Oregon has panels of medical ethics experts to determine this.  Some, perhaps fuzzier in terms of legitimacy, objection would be the fact that, morally, we have no right to strip another of life...whether they ask us to or not. 

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ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

And where did you get the idea you were required/expected to judge what anyone else does? In what way do you think your opinion will sway the outcome?