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RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 12:40:08 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

This topic really isnt about this anyways



I have to agree. This has strayed a long way from the premise of the OP.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to colouredin)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 12:40:12 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seniorwolf


I would agree with to a certain degree Utah but there is a fine line between fantasy and reality.

First off, the YKINOK mentality is the by product of our "grouping" nature. Human beings are, for some odd reason, a "restirctive" social grouping createure that loves to categoriez things. We do this in oder to define or differentiate between items, beliefs, people, races, religion and creeds. Once we have categoriezed our surrounding, to satisifaction of course, we then place definitions of correctness or acceptability. This is where YKINOK rears its ugly but social group specific head.

Cheers,
Vince


Vince your whole Thread applies to what I am responding to but this will get the Main points across.

First I wish to point out that we are in agreement, this is not confrontation or a difference of opinion we are simply discussing different sides of it.

Yes Pedophilia is Illegal and something I do not approve of or endorse however the point is I understand the Mentality. I do not claim to understand the person who acts on it but I do understand the Mental connection within them.

However you argument is that we are Products of our community and this I believe I have to argue, if only due to the fact that we are complete non-representation of the community whole. Now if you were refering only to the BDSM community I find it becomes a GREATER difference than Vanilla VS. Kink. In the BDSM community I find that I march to the beat pf a very different drummer I am not a carbon copy of what I witnessed. Many of my interests were developed mentally long before I was involved in a community to develop them physically. However once involved in the community hold I felt I personally tended to gravitate out to discover new kinks however I always continued to harbor my own.

That said I know I am not a common example, however I have witnessed the physical community in a varying degree of ways. I have been a part of Pansexual Munches which delt directly with the Sexual Dynamic and connection to most people. I have belonged to Rope Groups which delt primarily with the Activities of two people sexual or not and usually involving Bondage, and I have also belonged to discussion groups which delt primarily with arrogance and One True Wayism. (Maybe it was just that group but I have seen a trend)

Now all these things considered one think I noticed is that People tend to Gravitate toward people LIKE them which I think is what you were suggestintg in your reply to me, and so naturally people with common interests will find themselves together at a play party. An experiment to do if you enjoy people watching just review the people who congregate together and you can usually see the common interest among them. Those with the Leather Vests can usually be found in one group, those with the Rope can be found in another, those with the toys in another, and those who like to watch in thier own lilttle group seperated among all the other groups. I am serious if you really start looking for it you will find it.

Now having spent some time at play parties I have also noticed that a Particular Kink doesn't even have to be Taboo if it is being presented differently than someone likes to look at it.

I witnessed a humiliation scene in which a Master berated his slave in front of everyone dragged her by her Hair to every last persons shoes and asked them if the wanted her to lick them, those who knew this person agreed and he went on eventually he came to a few people who did not know him and they said "No" this of course sent him to go back to the girl and inform her how worthless she was because she wasn't even good enough to lick thier shoes.

I was watching this with interest because I knew "OF" him but did not know him personally but it was obvious his slave was USED to this behavior, there was no tears she pleaded but mainly she just went around with him doing as she was told and it was OBVIOUS she was VERY WET.

The DM stopped it and asked him to leave, this of coourse played into his scene with the girl and she took more verbal humiliation and I can only assume "DESIRED" abuse and the DM asked him to "STOP this Barbaric Behavior and just leave quietly" I was Appaled and told the hosts as much and they tried to relate that it was going beyond thier rules because other people believed that the Dom was being too serious and they were afraid for the girl. I couldn't believe this and left the party because even from where I sat I saw this as a His Kink was NOT okay, and I try very hard not to associate with them ... at times it makes for a lonely life.

My point in all this is KINK is for the individual so is acceptance however if it is important to BELONG then you start to look for the GROUP acceptance  in order to define your kink as okay.

Nothing is wrong to at least ONE other person on this planet and as long as there is more than one then you kinda have to accept that someone else somewhere finds it acceptable.

As Always

Steel

_____________________________

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
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(in reply to Seniorwolf)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 12:45:19 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I really don't care what other people do for fun- unless it's nonconsensual I suppose. As far as suicide by another goes... when it comes to me, if I was totally paralized and couldn't move, and had to rely on everyone else for everything from food to using the bathroom... yeah, dunno if I could live like that.

YKINMK involves people "surprising" me with something they just thought up... I had someone decide that body punching could be fun two days ago... never punch an unsuspecting girl in the pussy... k?

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 1:18:39 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Sooooo....what are your views on punishment again, Bob?


I have been wondering who you are and what you've done to my Rabbit.

on edit:

To answer your question directly, it is no secret I do not subscribe to punishment. I believe in correction/instruction rather than punishment.

Nor is it a secret that I do not understand the mindset that requires punishment.

Nonetheless, I have not gone so far as to say it is not a kink (it obviously is for many people), nor that it is a kink others must avoid.

By the same token, I am no advocate for punishment, and in a discussion on the matter I will advocate my own choice as preferable to punishment.

Whether others find my arguments convincing or not is up to them.

I do not see this as YKINOK, but rather as a discussion comparing two different approaches to a problem.

No doubt punishment advocates have their own justifications which may be just as convincing to some as my arguments are coinvincing for others.

YKINOK is not the same as diverging points of view as to which methods are most efficacious. YKINOK is a condemnation of an activity/lifestyle that it is always wrong under all circumstances for all people.

True, I do not understand how punishment can ever be effective, but I'd be blind to deny the existence of many advocates who claim it works, whether I understand it or not.

And it is not a matter of how many advocates exist. You may recall our discussions about no limits, and there were few advocates for that choice. Yet I see you've had second thoughts about it, which I think is great, by the way.

A lack of understanding need not lead to condemnation. Sometimes it is just a matter of not understanding until a particularly articulate advocate comes along and explains the matter to us. In the case of punishment, that is what I am waiting for. Until then, when I discuss punishment, I will point out the alternative and look for someone who can explain punishment in a way I can understand.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 4/21/2008 1:39:32 PM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 1:34:41 PM   
Seniorwolf


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/27/2007
Status: offline 		I laughed so hard when I wrote what you wrote, not in a bad way, because to an extent you would have to evaluate each indivdual.
So let use evaluate the degree of nuttiness!
The religious person, the fear they have does not in anyway affect their chance of survival, unless the only source of food left in the world was pork. When we evaluate fear versus acting out extreme fantasy desires, like amputation, we should, if you so desire, take into account the switching off of our survival instinct. If the person chose death versus eating pork then I would say yes there is an issue. Person who fasted himself to death is an issue as well. (remeber this is my opinion)

When we override our instinct to survive or stay out of imminent danger we are stepping ito a zone that is counter intuitive to species survival but I also understand that all of this based on pespective. If someone views being an amputee as a positive and desireable endeavor, then their perspective on the world is completely diffrent from mine.

Conversely, it must be understood that the world is not based on the indivdual perspective. We are governed by macro and micro social group persepctives. The Macro world views "most"of the people BDSM world as broken toys, mental cases, predators or as the decay of the moral fabric of the indivdual.

In our "micro" Bdsm world, we are broken up into RACK, SSC, YKINOK, or whatever acronym is being used today. Then we are further subdivided into groups like TES, Dark Connections, Dark Rose, insert local club name or what have you. The division continues into, are you a spanker, a diaper lover, an AB, do you like scat play or are toy TPE. Hell, even our fringe play has fringes!

All I am saying is common sense is not so common. We tend to play devil's advocate so much, to protect what we love doing, that  I wonder if we are just  reciting  our beliefs and counter arguements in a pavlovian manner.

Just take look at most peoples' hard limits:
No Kids
No animals
No scat
No piss
No blood
No permant damage
(just some that are usually listed in the top 10 that I have seen)
I would list scat, piss and blood play as being a personal preferance but the rest has some concrete reasoning as to why they should not occur. But I would also like to say, I understand why someone who shy away from that whole list.  (edit removal of TOS issue)

ack.. have to leave be back in a few hours

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 1:38:45 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Sooooo....what are your views on punishment again, Bob?


I have been wondering who you are and what you've done to my Rabbit.


I take it I won't be getting an answer.

I just found it funny to see you taking a stance in this debate on a ground of integrity and non-judgement despite your obvious past track record of condemning activities on these boards based on limited contexts and parameters of your own design.

Such blatant inconsistency and self deception is almost on par...with I don't know....someone claiming they had coined the phrase the "gift of submission" in their Internet journals.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 1:41:25 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I just found it funny to see you taking a stance in this debate on a ground of integrity and non-judgement despite your obvious past track record of condemning activities on these boards based on limited contexts and parameters of your own design.

Such blatant inconsistency and self deception is almost on par...with I don't know....someone claiming they had coined the phrase the "gift of submission" in their Internet journals.



Ah, now there is my bunnyboy

Never takes you long, Rabbit.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 1:41:51 PM   
Seniorwolf


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

First I wish to point out that we are in agreement, this is not confrontation or a difference of opinion we are simply discussing different sides of it.

Now all these things considered one think I noticed is that People tend to Gravitate toward people LIKE them which I think is what you were suggestintg in your reply to me,

Now having spent some time at play parties I have also noticed that a Particular Kink doesn't even have to be Taboo if it is being presented differently than someone likes to look at it.

I witnessed a humiliation scene in which a Master berated his slave in front of everyone dragged her by her Hair to every last persons shoes and asked them if the wanted her to lick them, those who knew this person agreed and he went on eventually he came to a few people who did not know him and they said "No" this of course sent him to go back to the girl and inform her how worthless she was because she wasn't even good enough to lick thier shoes.

I was watching this with interest because I knew "OF" him but did not know him personally but it was obvious his slave was USED to this behavior, there was no tears she pleaded but mainly she just went around with him doing as she was told and it was OBVIOUS she was VERY WET.

The DM stopped it and asked him to leave, this of coourse played into his scene with the girl and she took more verbal humiliation and I can only assume "DESIRED" abuse and the DM asked him to "STOP this Barbaric Behavior and just leave quietly" I was Appaled and told the hosts as much and they tried to relate that it was going beyond thier rules because other people believed that the Dom was being too serious and they were afraid for the girl. I couldn't believe this and left the party because even from where I sat I saw this as a His Kink was NOT okay, and I try very hard not to associate with them ... at times it makes for a lonely life.

My point in all this is KINK is for the individual, so is acceptance however if it is important to BELONG then you start to look for the GROUP acceptance in order to define your kink as okay.

Nothing is wrong to at least ONE other person on this planet and as long as there is more than one then you kinda have to accept that someone else somewhere finds it acceptable.

As Always

Steel


Great post! There is not one point that I counter point in your statement and I agree whole heartedly with your discourse. Thanks for the clarification :)

(in reply to Seniorwolf)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 1:53:50 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

Let me counter by asking the OP to clarify slightly:

Do you mean what is wrong from a legal basis (because, like it or not, this will include permanent disfigurement, anything that significantly and unduly endangers the life of a partner, etc, even if such conduct was consensual)?

Or do you mean from a moral basis, in which case I would be inclined to suspect that most of what is unacceptable is not going to be BDSM-specific, but rather unacceptable in any circumstances.



BDSM specific, but feel free to use either moralistic or legalistic reasonings. If it's illegal and someone believes that a given activity is wrong because of that, then by all means, perfectly within the context of the thread. If someone believes, based on their own morals and/or ethics that a given activity is wrong, also within the context of the thread.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Real_Trouble)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:02:00 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seniorwolf

I laughed so hard when I wrote what you wrote, not in a bad way, because to an extent you would have to evaluate each indivdual.


Exactly.

And considering all the variables, especially over the net with its limited forms of contact, I question the basis upon which a judgment of others is made.

Much easier to judge what and who is right for me, than what and who is right for anyone else.

Thus: "Live And Let Live" - LALL

The YKINOK brigade in many ways are doing what the evangelical right would love to do: dictate terms to the rest of us as to what is and is not acceptable. Just because the YKINOK brigade may indulge in some bdsm activities in no way places them in a position of expertise to dictate such matters to the rest of us.

Each relationship is a unique blend of skills, intelligence, love etc that produces something that works (assuming the relationship lasts). It doesn't have to work for anyone else, as long as it works within the relationship that produced it.

But to accept that would be to make a mockery of the concepts behind YKINOK, thus anyone who says "hey, that works for me and my partner" becomes an advocate who must be discredited so that the public ban can be maintained.

Which is why YKINOK so often leads to personal attacks, etc.

Some people are not satisfied making rules for themselves, they feel the need to dictate rules for everyone else to abide by. Whether it is the result of self-aggrandizement, runaway ego, or deeply-rooted insecurities is another matter.

The point is we are all supposed to own our own bodies and our own choices, to be free to do as we will with ourselves. That kind of freedom breeds anarchy, and the needs of some for structure insists on bringing order to this anarchy.

On the other hand, some of us are comfortable with anarchy because we are only really concerned with what we do, not what others do. I can offer insight and advice based on how I do things, but there is no compulsion for anyone to even read what I write, let alone adopt my practice.

I'm just an individual with a point of view, not a gang with an agenda.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to Seniorwolf)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:23:11 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
Personally I tend not to understand the YKINOK Mentality.
Even the Staples

Blood
Piss
Scat
Bestiality
Pedophilia
Disfigurement
Mutilation

I can understand all of these kinks even if I don't approve of them, I am able to understand why someone else would.

People, especially those who judge others Kinks need to accept that what we do, ALL of what we do is WRONG to someone else. If we want to live the way we do we need to accept that. Those who see something someone does as Morally Wrong ask yourself this.... What would a Holy Man think about your Union? Just because he would disapprove does that make what you do Wrong? So then why should it change for someone else and their particular kink.


So because some preacher might have issues with the things that my adult submissive and I do together I should be more tolerant of pedophiles and those that engage in sex acts with animals?

The thought that there are really people out there who are governed by this sort of logic scares the living hell out of me.





(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:32:41 PM   
Floggings4You


Posts: 240
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline 		From the OP:

Disclaimer: For the sake of this thread, please assume all activities to be between consenting adults fully aware of any risk and taking any safety precautions they deem necessary.

My questions: What BDSM activities are always wrong?

I'm not sure what activities fall under the heading 'BDSM activities', so for Me the question--as it was written, above--is unanswerable. 







(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:39:59 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
Personally I tend not to understand the YKINOK Mentality.
Even the Staples

Blood
Piss
Scat
Bestiality
Pedophilia
Disfigurement
Mutilation

I can understand all of these kinks even if I don't approve of them, I am able to understand why someone else would.

People, especially those who judge others Kinks need to accept that what we do, ALL of what we do is WRONG to someone else. If we want to live the way we do we need to accept that. Those who see something someone does as Morally Wrong ask yourself this.... What would a Holy Man think about your Union? Just because he would disapprove does that make what you do Wrong? So then why should it change for someone else and their particular kink.


So because some preacher might have issues with the things that my adult submissive and I do together I should be more tolerant of pedophiles and those that engage in sex acts with animals?

The thought that there are really people out there who are governed by this sort of logic scares the living hell out of me.


Hey there,

How did you get all the way out there, Why don't you come back and join the reast of us back here at my point, there's no real need to be out there in left field like that.

I am not saying anyone needs to do ANYTHING at all, I am just saying that those that judge harshly should understand they themselves can just as easily be judged.

The POINT, of my response is that What others think of me is NONE of MY Business. And People who think such things should remember that.

You can be a Pompas Blowhard about all the things that you don't like. I will never forget my ex girlfriends mother calling me a "Home Wrecker" because I had kissed thier girl and in thier eyes made her a whore. We were 13 and she was my first serious girlfriend. I was treated like a despot because they did not approve of my actions which to us were completely and totally acceptable. however to them they weren't.

Mind you Adult or not you and your submissive engage in a Class B Misdemeanor everytime you play. Don't ever forget that. In the eyes of the law in ALL 50 STATES you are a criminal and an abusive partner.

There is NO state in all 50 that has a Mutual Battery Law and so if the police come out you can and in many states WILL be charged with a crime.

My POINT is that judging others and calling thier Kink wrong doen't make you any better in someone elses eyes.

As I said before I do not approve of thier actions but it isn't for me to call them on the floor for it that is why we have a Legal System. I give the ability to decide these things to a Jury of peers and a legal system that although flawed it puts more bad guys in jail then it does good guys and I can life with that.

Steel



_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:40:01 PM   
Seniorwolf


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

My questions: What BDSM activities are always wrong?

Using my remote ( for my televison) as a blackmail device
or
Making me run after you (to adminsiter a spanking) after a heavy leg day at the gym!

(in reply to Floggings4You)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:41:34 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

So because some preacher might have issues with the things that my adult submissive and I do together I should be more tolerant ...


Those whose freedom depends upon the tolerance of the majority have a vested interest in advocating tolerance.

I wouldn't agree with Steel's list. <deleted to accomodate TOS concerns)

How much tolerance we show others is always a personal choice, based on personal ethics. But forums like this can be used for a crusade or as a place of learning.

Just depends upon how tolerant the majority chooses to be.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 4/21/2008 3:00:22 PM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:43:15 PM   
Seniorwolf


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

As I said before I do not approve of thier actions but it isn't for me to call them on the floor for it that is why we have a Legal System. I give the ability to decide these things to a Jury of peers and a legal system that although flawed it puts more bad guys in jail then it does good guys and I can life with that.


I can see where you are coming from and to a certain point I agree, but Pedo's will always be my breaking point. There is no way in the world to validate their actions as a kink! But on the rest of your arguement (point of view) very solid arguement wise.

(in reply to Seniorwolf)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:45:06 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		~FR~

Please folks.. some of you are skirting and downright crossing the lines of TOS. I'd really appreciate it if you could avoid topics which will cause this thread to get pulled. It's been great so far and I'd like to keep it that way.

Celeste - still reading through the thread

edited to add: The disclaimer speaks to activities which take place between consenting adults so keeping things within those parameters should steer us all clear of TOS issues.

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 4/21/2008 2:47:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 2:48:00 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Removed to accomidate possible TOS Infringement BY POSTER.

Steel

< Message edited by SteelofUtah -- 4/21/2008 2:49:25 PM >

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:02:16 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Removed to accomidate possible TOS Infringement BY POSTER.

Steel


yaya ...

Hey buddy, I wasn't the one who posted your list

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:12:04 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		No Bob you misunderstand.

My actual reply had to deal with someting that violates TOS in a way so instead of cause issue with the thread I just deleted the post and sent a C-mail to those I thought needed to know my thoughts on the issue.

I'm not upset.... just trying to be responsible.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 100
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