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RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:13:13 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

What you've described may make sense in chance encounters between virtual strangers, but makes no sense within the context of a loving LTR. Consent, ground-rules etc are not re-negotiated scene by scene, but are laid down in the beginning and understood thereafter.


Yes, which falls into the premise of fully consenting adults aware of the risk. At some point, the consent was put in place even if it isn't readdressed at every turn. If the ground rules are laid down, then both parties are fully aware and consent has been given. It seems to me that if you give consent without figuring out what you've consented to do (and most importantly 'who' you've consented to do them with!), that's something which falls under the heading of taking personal responsibility for your own actions. 

Himself and I don't discuss each scene prior to it taking place. We did all that sort of stuff twelve years ago. We spent, literally, thousands of hours talking before we spent one minute of playing. When anything new pops up which we've never heard of before (roman shower comes to mind) we discuss it and he either rejects it (as in the case of roman showers) or decides to incorporate it into a scene (such as cos play). I would imagine that most long-term relationship are somewhere along similar lines of communication.

If he has heard of something that I haven't (hasn't happened yet, but it's possible) and decides to incorporate it into the scene, that's his choice and I consented years ago for him to make the choices fully aware of the person he is and what he is 'most' likely to do. I don't need to, personally, say yes to each new activity because I've already said yes to Himself and he has my complete trust to do his will.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:17:18 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I'm not upset.... just trying to be responsible.



Thanks for the clarification.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:23:46 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Given where there is evidence of rational thought, communication and mutual understanding in my mind there can be no place for YKINOK anywhere in BDSM.


::amazing post snipped for the sake of brevity::



Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:34:13 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I don't need to, personally, say yes to each new activity because I've already said yes to Himself and he has my complete trust to do his will.



Sounds very much like what my wife and I had.

I used to point out to her that in truth, she was making a decision to obey every second, for on any given second she could change her mind and disobey, at which time my ethics and the law would expect me to abide by whatever choice she makes regarding what she does.

This helped her become very aware that her enslavement was her choice, and not something forced upon her by me. Made her much more responsible for what she freely chose to do with me and for me.

Changed bdsm from being kink to being an expression of love.

Some may see that as rather passive of me, but I have found it is much easier for most sub/slaves to believe they are forced into doing what they are doing than it is to find those who accept they have a need to do what they do.

By my refusing to do anything she did not beg for, she was placed in a position where she had to accept her needs and beg for more extreme behaviour if she was to get it (or whatever I came up with to address safety/health concerns I might have had).

By her accepting her need she embraced who she was, and was liberated to explore herself to a far greater degree than she'd achieved while in denial about her needs.

Life-changing relationships do not come without some emotional/psychological pain, as old paradigms are replaced with better ones.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:48:10 PM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline 		{Is there an activitiy within BDSM which if engaged in by someone you would believe them to need mental health therapy?}

The woman is stripped of her identity, any outside contact (isolated ) from friends/family, not allowed to learn, grow, have interests that are her own, has been brainwashed to believe she is worthless and has no choices and certainly not to leave and walk away.  Serves out of fear that she has no other options in life and will be KILLED if she disobeys or leaves ... and, she  IS OKAY  with his power over her to kill her, maim her,make her kill herself or make her hurt others in the name of being his slave.  She endures self-harm because she has been told it is devotion and serving him, but says to anyone who will listen she is weak, powerless, empty, violated, useless except to be used by him.

imo
slapping a bdsm label on this doesn't make it acceptable.  It is mental and psychological 
abuse.  The creation of a victim not a slave or submissive.
and the creator is an abuser........with a label slapped on himself that says Owner.

"consentual" isn't limited to someone who doesn't object to something happening to them. If their mental health has been altered/compromised in a way that leaves them unable to object or have a clear psychological understanding of their situation, then, imo, they are not making a consentual determination  ( as we here in WIIWD define consentual).


{If someone were engaging in a practice which you deem is wrong for them, would you point this out online}

I would want to( but privately)...but I have watched others with much louder voices than mine attempt to help.....it falls on deaf ears.

If I knew them locally and face to face?  yes, I would tell them how I "see" this as harming and non-consentual abuse, every opportunity I got.

And no I don't think that makes me the bdsm police. Why?  because it's not bdsm or kink in my view.


_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 3:58:14 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TysGalilah

"consentual" isn't limited to someone who doesn't object to something happening to them. If their mental health has been altered/compromised in a way that leaves them unable to object or have a clear psychological understanding of their situation, then, imo, they are not making a consentual determination 

 
And the fact they do not choose to object is proof to you they cannot object?
 
Just what battery of psychological tests are you running to determine whether this is true?
 
quote:
 
( as we here in WIIWD define consentual).



"we" ?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to TysGalilah)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:05:15 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline
quote:

quote:ORIGINAL: TysGalilah "consentual" isn't limited to someone who doesn't object to something happening to them. If their mental health has been altered/compromised in a way that leaves them unable to object or have a clear psychological understanding of their situation, then, imo, they are not making a consentual determination    And the fact they do not choose to object is proof to you they cannot object?


I take the unpopular view of believing that adults, even ones with disabilities, are capable of and entitled to make their own choices. Just because someone belongs to a culture where women traditionally have less 'power' than western women does not make them incapable of making decisions. Just because someone makes a decision i can not get my head wrapped around does not mean it is not truly consent.
if someone says they are happy, i believe them. if they are forcing their choices on others who are not so happy with them, that is the only way i am able to have a problem with it.
Constant examples of all those poor women - in cults, in Muslim, in Africa, - everywhere but the all perfect HERE - i believe that we can help those who reach out for help. But those who claim to be happy, i simply believe them. they know themselves better than i do, they are a better judge of their life than i am.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:09:22 PM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: TysGalilah

"consentual" isn't limited to someone who doesn't object to something happening to them. If their mental health has been altered/compromised in a way that leaves them unable to object or have a clear psychological understanding of their situation, then, imo, they are not making a consentual determination 

 
And the fact they do not choose to object is proof to you they cannot object?
 
Just what battery of psychological tests are you running to determine whether this is true?
 
quote:
 
( as we here in WIIWD define consentual).



"we" ?

 
when I say "we" I mean  those of us who participate in these discussions and use the term "consentual"  when talking about consentual kink.
 
don't fuss with me Bob.  The OP asked for my opinion and view and I stated them...just as you stated yours.
 
kewl how that works, hm?
 

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:13:31 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TysGalilah

don't fuss with me Bob.  The OP asked for my opinion and view and I stated them...just as you stated yours.
 
kewl how that works, hm?
 


If you're going to participate in a public forum, you can expect a response from the public.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

(in reply to TysGalilah)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:20:00 PM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: TysGalilah

don't fuss with me Bob.  The OP asked for my opinion and view and I stated them...just as you stated yours.
 
kewl how that works, hm?
 


If you're going to participate in a public forum, you can expect a response from the public.

 
One of the great things about this forum : ) all the participation...love love love it..
 
now back to the topic, so it doesn't get derailed..
see you around, Bob : )

 

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:26:46 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Disclaimer: For the sake of this thread, please assume all activities to be between consenting adults fully aware of any risk and taking any safety precautions they deem necessary.

(YKINOK = Your kink is not okay)



(Dammit...I thought it meant "Your Kink Is Not Our Kink"...I was just about to say..."I'm okay with your kink....so long as someone's nekkid")

I say...Let's get NEKKID!!!!!!

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:48:10 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Would you deem a dominant who engages in the activity to be automatically abusive despite the consent?


Celeste



My first immediate answer was to say no because there would have been consent. Then I broke my immediate response down into three considerations;
1. Where I am participating and I have given consent, we have agreed to consent and I have still signalled to stop. This means that it (the activity) began as ok ie not ab-use and then went on to become NOT OK but not necessarily ab-usive but simply not ok in that moment.
(For what I mean about the difference between use and ab-use refer to almost any google reference to sunstance use and ab-use and their differentials: the same applies to partaking of a bdsm activity).
2. If it is about others' consensual behaviour then I would have only four conditions (see below) under which I would deem the activities not to be ok. They are:
3. Where I knew the consesnual activity lead to one or other of the following: pre-meditative murder, where I knew the activities lead to peadophilia, where I knew the actvities lead to incest. There could be a conflict between my personal and professional opinion in these three instances and I would therefore seek third party intervention and advice. In the last instance further considerations would have to be given outside of what I considered to be my own personal opinion if I were answerable to a jury or to an ethics committee. Here I would have to consider participants' human rights and cultural contexts and reasonable doubt.
This gives the impression that there are instances where my ethical, professional and personal conduct are at odds. i think might be so for many of us within the bdsm community but I can only admot this to be so on a personal basis and therefore the bonds of both safety, sanity and consensuality become even more profound. I have always striven for there to be no conflict between my persobal and professional conduct but I am not an angel entire and whole unto myself.



_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 4:59:30 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

Some may see that as rather passive of me, but I have found it is much easier for most sub/slaves to believe they are forced into doing what they are doing than it is to find those who accept they have a need to do what they do.



Bob: I'n just going to quote this back over to you and then I'm not going to truck with you any more on these forums as you have already in a previous thread slammed me with an inappropriate response. You said, and I repeat;
~~but I have found it is much easier for most sub/slaves to believe they are forced into doing what they are doing than it is to find those who accept they have a need to do what they do.~~
You find it difficult to find subs who accept they have a need to do what they need to do? So you force them to believe that they are forced into doing what they do? The reality is that it IS difficult simply to find subs or slaves these days who are happy to be forced into believing they need to do what they do not what to do..........


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 5:20:47 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
if you have ever been on the receiving end of YKINOK, please feel free to share your experience and what brought such attention to you.


It has been very rare for me to have someone speak out to me that the things I enjoy in BDSM.  About the only thing that I can recall is punching and kicking, but then again it wasn't even directly stated to me.  It was a negative thread about the topic in general and not towards me.

It isn't that we do not engage in activities that some object to it either.  I mean we have anal sex without lube, he beats me bloody with a BBQ brush and in general he is very sadistic.  Some people have a difficult time watching us play, but then there are others who see how much fun we are having and love watching us.

I think that in large part stops people from making the negative comments to me; it is pretty plain to see that I am having a lot of fun.  Hard to argue with a girl that is laughing, smiling and getting in her own shots in play.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 5:26:09 PM   
midgetmafiosa


Posts: 195
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Maine, and SLC, UT
Status: offline 		a lot of things shock and horrify me that are consentual play. i don't pretend to get it.  the thing that goes beyond all my understanding, though, is permanent damage to one's own or another's body. other than that, i really don't have to get it. i just don't have to participate.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 6:21:46 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
Those whose freedom depends upon the tolerance of the majority have a vested interest in advocating tolerance.


That's an excellent point. I try to be as tolerant as I can be all the time. There are kinks I am not into, some I do not understand and some I think are downright dangerous - too dangerous for me to consider for myself even if I was enticed by the notion. That said, I wouldn't deny other consenting adults the freedom to pursue those very things if that is their choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
How much tolerance we show others is always a personal choice, based on personal ethics.


Another excellent point. There are limits to the amount of tolerance I personally am willing to extend. I would love to see those few limits adopted by everyone across the board and honestly cannot fathom why everyone does not. That was the point of my previous post.


(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 7:31:09 PM   
SensualistOne


Posts: 5
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		crap i hate when i don't log out of my "other account"...i even went back to do it...and forgot..


< Message edited by SensualistOne -- 4/21/2008 7:32:03 PM >

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 7:32:58 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

And where did you get the idea you were required/expected to judge what anyone else does? In what way do you think your opinion will sway the outcome?



Sooooo....what are your views on punishment again, Bob?


is it too late for this? 

chelle


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 9:51:06 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:

We engage in (drum roll and prepare for gasps) scat activities, which apparently is on "the universal standard limit list." So I am gross, mentally unstable, uncared about, and a count down away from death.


i see your scat activities (all people who give rim jobs engage in scat activities, duh) and raise you canibalistic rituals (not been done yet, but hopefully, some day)...in short, part of a skin removal scarification, after the skin has been removed from each person to eat it...there are lots of reasons behind it...but that would be so fucking hot...specially if it was fried, like chicharones...

chelle



Chicharones!!!  LOL nice one, chelle.  A surprising post (to me) but fascinating, none-the-less!



_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: BDSM Activities: YKINOK - 4/21/2008 10:36:22 PM   
TeachMeTonight


Posts: 67
Joined: 11/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

I thought that this was a fascinating question:  Is there anything that is not ok?

Knowingly having unprotected sex while carrying an STD or AIDS would also be outlawed.  Most things are up to the participants, but anything couched in lies is morally reprehensible.



I am assuming that you mean knowingly doing this without your partner's knowledge.  When it comes to HSV-2 even with condoms and surpressive therapy a non-infected partner is taking a risk.  Like the Valtrex commercials, many couples willingly take this risk. I would not judge people who take the risk of not using condoms when the non-infected partner does so knowing the risk they are taking.

In addition many STDs are undiagnosed, HPV being a prime example, since no man knows if he is a carrier or not the only option would be to use condoms all the time, but then there would also be no babies.  Well unless of course the condom slips off, I must admit I have had to retreive more than one condom in my life, so again this is not a practical restriction.  The only ethical option is to test yourself and inform partners of your status.  At that point RACK applies.  You are aware of the risk and you consent to it, or not.

_____________________________

Yours in Leather
Teach Me Tonight


(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 120
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