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RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 12:10:56 PM

SugarMyChurro

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When the state and corporate interests combine and the individual exists at the leave of the state you have fascism. That's what we have in the states, and it's very close to what you have in the U.K.

Did you take note of the surveillance cameras in London? Yeah, they are there to catch "terrorists" and "criminals" and not there to control you. Keep telling yourself that. And that's just the tip of the surveillance iceberg...

You have been commoditized and monetized.

Your information - which is traded upon - has a value in the calculation of how much you will consume.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 61

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 2:24:49 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings politesub,

I believe there will be chaos as well, but I feel that conflict is needed for the people of the region to sort things out themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hi Orion. Yes its a pretty poor tactic which didnt have anything to do with the contents of my post.

Whether anyone feels it was right or wrong to go into Iraq, and personally i have always thought it was wrong. I think if we pull out now, there will be chaos, which we will have to sort out at a later date anyway. There will almost certainly be a worse Sunni/Shia conflict than we already have. If that happens i can see it spreading to adjoining States, including Saudi.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Post #: 62

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 2:30:22 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

When the state and corporate interests combine and the individual exists at the leave of the state you have fascism. That's what we have in the states, and it's very close to what you have in the U.K.

The color orange is close to red, but it is not red. You used the word to gain attention, and to dramaterize your statement.

quote:

Did you take note of the surveillance cameras in London? Yeah, they are there to catch "terrorists" and "criminals" and not there to control you. Keep telling yourself that. And that's just the tip of the surveillance iceberg...

The citizens still have rights that can be upheld with due process. When all due process is eliminated, then you will have fascism. If you need to sites to educate yourself on this, let me know.

quote:

You have been commoditized and monetized.

Your information - which is traded upon - has a value in the calculation of how much you will consume.

This has nothing to do with your statement about fascism. This has everything to do with your obsession against the western world. Since the beginning of time people have been a commodity, and people have consumed. Since the first group of people had excess and another did not have enough, there has been commerce. Try to zero in on the problem, which is business as usual politicians backed by big money. Anyone that votes republican or democrat in the presidential elections is just continuing the status quo and the perpetuation of the corruption.

Vote Bob Barr or any third party.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Post #: 63

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 3:44:36 PM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
This has nothing to do with your statement about fascism.

I think this amply shows your misunderstanding of the word in question. Obviously, my point has everything to do with a conflation of state and corporate interests. You don't find it interesting that rather than trying to protect your privacy through laws the U.S. government is actively seeking ways to undermine your privacy via projects like TIA and other data surveillance programs?

You really must be kidding...

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 64

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 4:57:57 PM

Politesub53

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Half the cameras in London dont work, As i recall the ones on the underground on 7/7 were too problematic to give any decent photos. Im not sure where you get the idea about Cameras in London controlling the populace, more can be found from my credit card trail. Your definition of fascism is miles away from the context of my original post, which was all to do with standing up to Hitler.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 65

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 6:01:24 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
This has nothing to do with your statement about fascism.

I think this amply shows your misunderstanding of the word in question. Obviously, my point has everything to do with a conflation of state and corporate interests. You don't find it interesting that rather than trying to protect your privacy through laws the U.S. government is actively seeking ways to undermine your privacy via projects like TIA and other data surveillance programs?

You really must be kidding...

No, you must really be kidding ...

I gave you a pretty good précis about what "Facism" is, and isn't, and you still don't show any ability to absorb knowledge, if it conflicts with your own narrow, self-defined BS meanings:

Facism for Sugar.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 66

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 6:28:10 PM

SugarMyChurro

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fas·cism (fash?iz´?m) noun
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
- Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

I'm just going to do the "a" part for the U.S.:
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator...

Some people say the apparatus for this is in place since 9/11. Certainly there has been some fear that both our elections have been stolen and that Bush might not step down. I'm just saying that we are moments away from something quite drastic.

Take away the word dictator and it's a perfect fit. Even without being a dictator, Bush seems as slippery as teflon.

...stringent socioeconomic controls...

Obviously occurring as corporate welfare and cronyism. Also through the Federal Reserve and the absence of Constitutional dollars. Frankly, we could talk about this all day...

...suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship...

Again, the AQ bogeyman and the control of media through propaganda. We sure haven't been seeing those coffins coming back from Iraq, have we? That's censorship. Control of the media has been discussed here numerous times.

Dan Rather claimed that self-censorship was at work in U.S. media - that the seriousness of being called unpatriotic took on the same social stigma as necklacing in South Africa. Because of that fact, no one questioned this administrations agenda until it was too late.

...and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism...

The hallmarks of empire and very alive today in the U.S. For decades there has been endemic racism against people of color, and now you can add to this a generic fear of Muslims. We see this on these boards all the time.

Oh, and I suppose belligerent nationalism probably includes things like invading sovereign nations just because we feel like it, eh? We don't have to use diplomacy, we just make everyone our bitch because otherwise we nuke them.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 67

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 7:43:02 PM

FirmhandKY

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Yah know Sugar ... I started a long post, but on rethinking, I believe that your post above is the best indication of lack of understanding about ... well .. pretty much everything.

You are deep into the "loony left" side of conspiracy theorists, my friend.

Talking with you doesn't do any good. You know it all already.

Even if "it" is all wrong.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 68

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 10:46:51 PM

SugarMyChurro

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I am just saying that the USA is clearly a fascism in the making. We're not far off now. What it would take to tip the scales isn't a lot.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 69

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/26/2008 11:34:26 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I am just saying that the USA is clearly a fascism in the making. We're not far off now. What it would take to tip the scales isn't a lot.

Although the term may have changed, this is a concept that has been bandied about by both sides of the political equation.

The "right" said much the same thing about Clinton. Think about the Weaver case, the Branch Davidians, and the Elias Gonzales case.

Roosevelt was accused of the same thing.

So was Andrew Jackson.

So were many president since the founding.

Worry? Sure ... we should always keep our eyes open, and I recognize a certain utility of an aware and suspicious portion of the population.

Just ... I think that an overheated claim such as you are making clouds the issue, and the hyperbole of the claims makes it easy to discount and deflect attention from valid issues.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 70

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 1:24:12 AM

OrionTheWolf

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I do not disagree with you that the government is undermining many of our liberties, but the point I was making is your use of the word. Kind of like a train going by a house and rattling the windows, and someone screaming earthquake. It is not fascism yet, it may be getting closer but it is not fascism. Your words are used to draw our fatalistic conclusions and hysterical reactions, without discussion of merits. Why else would you use the word when it does not apply?

You also do not seem to read the actual words that I type, because you seem to respond as if I have secretly coded what I wrote, than actually responded to the specific words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
This has nothing to do with your statement about fascism.

I think this amply shows your misunderstanding of the word in question. Obviously, my point has everything to do with a conflation of state and corporate interests. You don't find it interesting that rather than trying to protect your privacy through laws the U.S. government is actively seeking ways to undermine your privacy via projects like TIA and other data surveillance programs?

You really must be kidding...

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 71

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 1:26:00 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Now this is a more accurate point, but still way off the mark. You say it would not take much, so now I would like to know what you feel is left to do to make it completely fascist? Since socialism, or Marxism, is the opposite of fascism, then all socialism would have to be absent to have fascism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I am just saying that the USA is clearly a fascism in the making. We're not far off now. What it would take to tip the scales isn't a lot.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 72

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 8:47:18 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Now this is a more accurate point, but still way off the mark. You say it would not take much, so now I would like to know what you feel is left to do to make it completely fascist? Since socialism, or Marxism, is the opposite of fascism, then all socialism would have to be absent to have fascism.

I don't believe that fascism and socialism (communism as practiced in the USSR and other nations) are opposites. To me, they are both cousins of the same animal - totalitarianism.

In fact, Fascism is nothing more than socialism "with a national face".

Both see the state as the primary instrument and actor in society.

Both are about subordinating the individual to the state. Their opposite is societies where the state is considered subordinate to the individual, such as "liberal democracies".

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You also do not seem to read the actual words that I type, because you seem to respond as if I have secretly coded what I wrote, than actually responded to the specific words.

This is a very, very, VERY common affliction of those conflicted with ideological thinking.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/27/2008 8:48:48 AM >

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Post #: 73

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 12:16:03 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings Firm,

quote:

Original: Benito Mussolini (1883-1945)

...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society....

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 74

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 12:22:57 PM

FirmhandKY

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Greetings, Orion,

I'm aware that some see the two as opposites, I just don't agree with them.

In effect, Fascism is an offshoot of Socialism/Communism.

Like most splits over theology, the other side is "heretical" and both sides consider themselves the "enlightened" and the other side as the "devil" ... complete opposites, even if 99% of what they both believe is the same.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 75

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 2:48:35 PM

MistressEllieS

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Well done...I knew the song before I even reached the third line. In September my son is off to Navy Officers Candidate School and back to the war after 4 years off. I am NOT happy. Officer or not our troops belong back home! I already went through 3 years of him being there. These kids feel they are doing the right thing...it is really scary.

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 76

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/27/2008 3:57:37 PM

OrionTheWolf

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There may be some forms of fascism that bring in elements of each, but socialism cannot exist if the state is in charge. Just because you can have a dictator in both, does not make them the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Greetings, Orion,

I'm aware that some see the two as opposites, I just don't agree with them.

In effect, Fascism is an offshoot of Socialism/Communism.

Like most splits over theology, the other side is "heretical" and both sides consider themselves the "enlightened" and the other side as the "devil" ... complete opposites, even if 99% of what they both believe is the same.

Firm

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 77

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/28/2008 6:57:36 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In effect, Fascism is an offshoot of Socialism/Communism.

Firm

Thanks for your admission of not understanding political ideas and philosophies.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 78

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/28/2008 8:42:23 AM

parttimehotty

Posts: 4002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq

Wha??? And let them control our oil? You left-wing commie pinko fringe unpatriotic extremist.

pardon my blonde in a very pissy mood and getting ready to take off on my fucking broom ignorance, but i've never understood the term pinko...i'm very pink in certain places...just sayin.

Whenever I hear "pinko", I think of Archie Bunker!

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Post #: 79

RE: 12 Reasons to Get Out of Iraq - 4/28/2008 2:44:15 PM

FirmhandKY

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In effect, Fascism is an offshoot of Socialism/Communism.

Firm

Thanks for your admission of not understanding political ideas and philosophies.

Yeah, well, unlike some, I can learn. And I have spent enough time learning about politics and how philosophy and history interact to take a stand about a subject that may not be the same as what you learned about in the pablum level intro courses, or partisan websites.

And like my discussion with Orion, some of us can disagree without being snarky and shitty about it.

Maybe you should try to figure out how we do that.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 80

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