Expectations of Male Submissives (Full Version)

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Stephann -> Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 8:37:18 AM)

So there was another thread here where a male submissive was clear about stating he wanted very specific things, and was told repeatedly that it'd probably be a long time before he'd have them met, because it wasn't supposed to be about what he wanted.

I understand on a regular basis that female dominants are approached by men who clearly have little or no interest in her desires and expectations, and immediately rattle off lists of "I expect my mistress to do X, Y, & Z while wearing blah blah blah."  But many (not all mind you) of the expectations he outlined seemed to be in keeping with what female submissives expect as a matter of course: that they share a bed, that sex would be part of the relationship, that he be allowed to work outside the house, that he has limitations when it comes to physical labor, that she have a college education, etc etc. 

Obviously, there's greater competition amongst male submissives for female dominants; yet how does stating preferences for a certain kind of situation make a male any less submissive, for stating those preferences?

Stephan



MladyHathor -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 8:57:59 AM)

Quick response and I will come back in a bit---female submissives speak more often through their head--as natural nurturers, they are able to address some basic hierarchy of needs, relationship and add to it. Male submissives often speak from their "head"--whatever to get in to pants--IMHO that isnt submissive that's a horndog and in all fairness it's the 80/20 rule. 20% of the good ones have to work twice as had to get noticed in the morass of the 80% hard legs.  Now on the other side, ( and here I stand at the flames) many professed female Dominants  I see are gold digging, lazy, self centered users, who think this life is a way never to have to lift a finger, work, or get off their butts to do anything.  So that behavior IMHO has driven the horndogs.
 
( I hope this does not get Me in trouble with many of the Ladies here, as I think we all know the kind I refer to)



Dnomyar -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 9:00:43 AM)

To me the question is that should a male submissive even state preferences. Why put yourself in a narrow box. Should there not be some give and take between both parties. Finding a Domme/Dom who is willing to communicate with you should come first. Negoating the preferences comes after that.



darchChylde -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 9:06:11 AM)

Stephann, i believe that it's much less about what one says than about how one says it.  Most seem to go straight to "i want" and "i need", going into great depth and detail before mentioning what they have to offer; which is often treated as an aside or an afterthought.  Mostly, i think along the lines of profiles; where it's not unusual to see what amounts to a list of demands without the slightest mention of what they happen to be like as a person, outside of their kinks and fetishes.



AsianShoeDiva -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 9:06:25 AM)

It doesn't.  The problem (IN MY OPINION [:)]) stems from Mistresses/Dommes hearing from/dealing with too many "do-me" subs who are simply looking to bottom to their fetish. Dealing with those types becomes very tiresome. There are times when I myself have jumped all over a sincere submissive for simply stating his preferences in a normal get to know you type of conversation.  I assume, "here it comes, the whole description of how I can have the privelege of becoming his personal fetish delivery device.."   It has become a HOT button issue for me and it's hard sometimes to separate the two types of men.

edited to say:
OOPS!   This is BSB.... ASD was at my house and I forgot to make sure I was posting under my name..



MistressMiracle -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 9:37:35 AM)

I do find it irritating when male subs write to me, and go on and on about their wishes and whims.  Also, I tend to delete sub's profiles/emails when they show no respect in a first e-mail or inquiry.  For example, not addressing me as Mistress.  Not thanking me for my time after their request for me to review their profile.  Many subs are only looking for a Mistress to satisfy their fetishes.  I have learned to read emails and profiles completely, and if I feel there is too much attitude, I reply with a "not interested".  

Also, anyone else tired of receiving extremely long emails, which obviously are sent to EVERY Mistress or DOM, detailing adult adoption, cotnracts, etc. etc.  One even wrote that he had mental defects, and needed to be kept caged and secured at all times.  BUT of course, he came from a wealthy family who disowned him, and he had a trust fund from them.  Ridiculous. 



Stephann -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 9:47:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

Stephann, i believe that it's much less about what one says than about how one says it.  Most seem to go straight to "i want" and "i need", going into great depth and detail before mentioning what they have to offer; which is often treated as an aside or an afterthought.  Mostly, i think along the lines of profiles; where it's not unusual to see what amounts to a list of demands without the slightest mention of what they happen to be like as a person, outside of their kinks and fetishes.



In a big way, this is the heart of what I'm getting at.  What I saw in the other thread seemed to be a double standard to me; women castigating a male submissive for using language that female submissives are tolerated, even praised for.

I know when I talk with someone I'm interested in, their wants and needs are going to be very important.  I agree, not everyone is as eloquant as they could be, only that it doesn't necessarily mean their stated preferences should be scoffed at (leading me to)

Dnomyar,

I think we all have preferences 'out of the box.'  It doesn't mean they are necessarily hard preferences; that's one of my frustrations with BDSM checklists, in fact.  Typically, women I've known who list breath play and choking as a hard limit, in fact, enjoys the sort of breathplay I enjoy (constricting the base of the neck with my hand or a belt.)  Without discussing those things more in depth, such stated preferences can be taken out of context.  I always assume that peoples preferences are just that; I prefer Italian food, I strongly dislike sushi, but I can usually find food I really enjoy at most sushi bars.  Knowing what a potential partner prefers goes a long way towards establishing compatibility though; I know I tend not to enjoy relationships with people who aren't interested in the outdoors, or public dungeons for example.

Stephan



thetammyjo -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 10:04:25 AM)

Would your reference the thread(s) you are referring to? That will help my memory before I can comment.



Leatherist -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 10:07:57 AM)

Supply and demand.
 
Women are the "*queens* ,and men mere worms. Haven't you been reading the lifestyle manual? [;)]



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 10:25:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Obviously, there's greater competition amongst male submissives for female dominants; yet how does stating preferences for a certain kind of situation make a male any less submissive, for stating those preferences?


It all depends on what is being stated.

The examples given of wanting to work outside the home and be able to seemingly have a relationship with a Domme would be alright in my book.  Those aren't really the overly-detailed wanker fantasies, but would smack more of someone seeking a LTR.  In which case I suppose it might be better for the sub to come out and say that they're looking for a real relationship and not just play, rather than going into the specifics without first establishing a line of communication -- it's the equivalent of going on a first date and asking about future children five minutes as soon as the other person says "Hi."

The line is crossed when you get a letter that contains six paragraphs of rambling about how much he wants to be tied up and beaten while dressed like Sailor Moon or whatever those crazy kids are doing nowadays.  Most people have their interests/limits in their profiles already, so theoretically a prospective Domme could wander on over to the sub's profile and see what they've got listed.  It's hard to explain, but you can smell a wanker a mile away.

Oh, and most importantly?  I hate it when I get letters full of stuff about how they're kneeling at my feet and stuff like that.  Approach me as a person, not a piece of woman-flesh in boots.  [8|]







sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 10:52:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I understand on a regular basis that female dominants are approached by men who clearly have little or no interest in her desires and expectations, and immediately rattle off lists of "I expect my mistress to do X, Y, & Z while wearing blah blah blah." 



in my opinion, they're neither submissive nor slave,  just men (mostly married) seeking to fulfill a fantasy.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 11:03:05 AM)

If you're referring to the thread I'm thinking of...  Then the person in question wasn't so much talking about his needs as he was making sure he'd be in complete control of how everything works.  Most dominants, from what I've seen, don't like being controlled by the submissive.  Heck, I don't think most submissives actually like controlled as completely as his profile had things.  The dominant was supposed to do a whole laundry list of things for him...and most of them weren't even understandable things.  Then there were a lot of things that he wouldn't do, under no circumstances.  Hardly ever did he talk about what he'd do for any potential dominant.

There is a difference between talking about your needs and wanting entirely dictate a relationship from day one.

In my first profile, the day I joined the site.  It was pretty simple.  I spoke briefly about myself, my inexperience, and my eagerness to learn.  I didn't speak on and on about my fantasies, because I didn't believe it was right, helpful, or proper for me to do so.  At the end, I made my only demand.  It's the only demand I still keep, when it comes to meeting friends.  I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs...and I'm only interested in meeting someone similar, or someone who is kind enough to keep it away from me.

It worked out fine for me.  Am I saying it would work for everybody?  Of course not.  I -do- think, however, that a only 25% of the profile, at most, should be focused on how much you'd love to be a hole for a domme's strap-on.  Because, after about 500 words or so, it gets kind of annoying.

I'd love to say that submissive males don't deserve to be looked at with suspicion...but they do.  They've earned it.  It does suck for the rest of us, tough.

DV's Fox



darchChylde -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 11:05:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie

he wants to be tied up and beaten while dressed like Sailor Moon or whatever those crazy kids are doing nowadays. 


Ok, i only have the vaguest idea of what Sailor Moon is dressed like (i know i've seen it somewhere at some point); but i don't think i can ever forgive you for that image.



beargonewild -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 11:13:17 AM)

~FR~

I am wondering how often a male sub is falsely accused of being a "do me sub" or a SAM when they have stated in their profile their wants/needs/desires and are specific on what they are searching for. Looking at the other side of this issue, isn't it highly possible that a male sub who is specific in their wants and needs are simply more aware of themselves and are more accurately portraying the fact they know themselves better? It seems to me that a male sub who knows himself, is better able to articulate their needs to a potential Domme. To me this seems preferable then a male sub who simply states that he is willing to do/be anything the Mistress wants or one who has no idea what they seek and the Domme thus has to waste her time determining if that sub is worth the effort and is an actual "do me" type.



thetammyjo -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 12:17:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

~FR~

I am wondering how often a male sub is falsely accused of being a "do me sub" or a SAM when they have stated in their profile their wants/needs/desires and are specific on what they are searching for. Looking at the other side of this issue, isn't it highly possible that a male sub who is specific in their wants and needs are simply more aware of themselves and are more accurately portraying the fact they know themselves better? It seems to me that a male sub who knows himself, is better able to articulate their needs to a potential Domme. To me this seems preferable then a male sub who simply states that he is willing to do/be anything the Mistress wants or one who has no idea what they seek and the Domme thus has to waste her time determining if that sub is worth the effort and is an actual "do me" type.



It's more preferably in that he will have a greater chance of finding exactly what he wants -- knowing what you want can only increase the chance.

However, when we are too specific then we radically decrease the potential pool from which we can draw potential partners from. Be prepared then to have to take a very long time or be incredibly lucky about finding a partner.

Over time, I became more and more picky myself but I have the luxury of having one slave and one husband, I don't need or even necessarily desire more though I'd be open to more in the future. Therefore I can be as damned picky as I like because I'm in no hurry of any type.

Let's face it. Most of these threads begin when someone complains or whines or moans or whatever about how its so hard to find a dominant or a submissive. When they then share their long lists of requirements, yeah, it can trigger a "you aren't submissive" reaction from people but my reaction is more "How realistic is this list?" or "What other things can you do to attract someone?".



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 12:25:19 PM)

I think that when the list of wants and needs is ENTIRELY based on fetish that female dominants get turned off.  When the list of "services" on offer is entirely sexual, and based on the sexual needs/desires of the would-be submissive, not on what the dominant is interested in.  When the would-be submissive ignores simple directions and forges ahead calling the dominant by some term that she dislikes, or incessantly PM's her.  Add to the list as you wish, it's a long one!

As an equal-opportunity sadist/dominant, I can tell you that it is substantially easier to meet up with a female submissive than a male, simply because the women are good at communicating who and what they are as human beings, not fetish machines.   Life is not a 24/7 scene, even in a TPE relationship.  It's good to know that you love to talk, eat BBQ, and go fly fishing, not just that oh wow you are really good at oral service mistress....

I think it's good to know oneself, and have an idea of likes/dislikes/interests, regardless of orientation or experience.  I KNOW that if you want to attract a woman, you have to show interest in her as a person.  This is true even if it's two folks in a bar looking to hook up---even if you don't CARE about that piece on the next bar stool, you fake it, don't you?  Be honest, guys!

Yes, it's a double standard of sorts.  Yes, the women can afford to be picky.  Truly, I am not unhappy when I see an honest do-me boy rattle off his list of IwantIwant, because I know that he is pretty much NOT what *I* want, and I can move on.  Or, he might have some like that is right up my alley, and be a great occasional play date.  If Mr Do-Me is just that, I don't think he should present himself as Mr Great Slave, because that would be a pretty transparent lie. 

There's that saying, "water seeks its own level"...I never used to like it, but it's pretty apt here. 



Lashra -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 12:27:15 PM)

In my mind it doesn't make him any less submissive, I want to hear his preferences to see if they jive with mine. If they don't then he isn't a match for me. Let's face it everyone expects to get something they need out of a relationship, people who claim that they aren't and that its all about the other persons needs are just kidding themselves.

What makes me think a person isnt submissive is when they say "My Mistress will wear black leather and dress up me up as a sissy maid and ream my ass repeatedly with her strapon until my legs give out and I'm a jello mess on the floor every night."  Now perhaps this does meet some Dominants expectations, but it doesn't meet mine. I will wear what I want, I will tell my sub what to wear and I will choose what we will do and if he has a problem with that he should have thought about it back in the negotiation stage of the relationship.

Of course subs should have expectations, because Dominants certainly do.

~Lashra



lateralist1 -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 12:33:26 PM)

In my experience men tend to be more interested in the physical aspects of what happens to them in a relationship rather than the relationship itself.
I am looking for a sexual partner because BDSM is my sexuality.
It's not just about finding someone to serve me in other ways.
So my expectations are higher than someone who just wants someone to do their cleaning.
If I find the right partner I hope the relationship would last a lifetime.
Many subs especially young ones know full well that their service is a temporary thing.
I am not looking to play or for a temporary sexual partner.
So I have to get to the bottom of who someone is as a person and they have to find out if I could be the person who they could commit to totally.
That obviously rules out married men or men who are on a quest for notches on their belt etc.
The fact that he will have to relocate to me adds in an extra pressure.
There is no point in me getting involved with someone who can't or wouldn't even for the love of his life.
I'm totally exasperated with men who think they can behave abominably on the first meeting so that they can see if I can control them.
The question is why would I want to when I can just walk away?
However actually I quite like it that they do because I can then see them as they really are and definietly walk away.
If we were all more upfront about what we need from BDSM it would be so much easier to find the right person.
However while I'm looking it is quite nice to make friends who are accepting of my need for BDSM without them expecting to be the one who can fulfil those needs.
I'm a very unusual, difficult person to please. My expectations of myself and others are very very high. Therfore I need a man who is very like minded. Most people could not even begin to understand me.
I really am not going to do what any other person wants me to do or be what they want me to be. That's why I got the sack from my job. When you have done life and death assessments with people for a long time it's not easy to stop lol. I also trained psycho gereatricians how to do their job so I don't take kindly to people thinking I'm mad because I happen to like whiping my significant other. However when someone decides to pack up their job and home and move their um's to live with some strange man then I know they are mad. Or move some man into their home that they have met once. Maybe not clinically mad but anyone with any sense knows what I mean. However I have done it and I bear the emotional scars.
You can ruin your life a lot easier than you can fix what's wrong.



DominantJenny -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 1:17:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

If you're referring to the thread I'm thinking of...  Then the person in question wasn't so much talking about his needs as he was making sure he'd be in complete control of how everything works.  Most dominants, from what I've seen, don't like being controlled by the submissive.  Heck, I don't think most submissives actually like controlled as completely as his profile had things.  The dominant was supposed to do a whole laundry list of things for him...and most of them weren't even understandable things.  Then there were a lot of things that he wouldn't do, under no circumstances.  Hardly ever did he talk about what he'd do for any potential dominant.

There is a difference between talking about your needs and wanting entirely dictate a relationship from day one.


Yes, that, exactly.

I have no problem with the things you mentioned, although I do reserve the right to, say, make my slave sleep on the floor every once in a while if I want, and haven't seen many female submissives insist on a college education (I happen to have one, but that's neither here nor there.) The apparent rigidity of his statements were a big part of the negative reaction, I think. One expects a certain attitude of flexibility in a submissive (apart from a few hard limits, of course.) There was a defensive quality that's a real turn-off to people who are looking for vulnerability. And, I have to say, I've seen more high-quality male submissives on this site in the short time I've been here than I've ever encountered anywhere else, so I'd say he's up against some impressive competition, too. (I almost feel bad I'm not looking for a male submissive!)

Jen



MistressOfGa -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/24/2008 3:06:15 PM)

quote:

One even wrote that he had mental defects, and needed to be kept caged and secured at all times.  BUT of course, he came from a wealthy family who disowned him, and he had a trust fund from them.  Ridiculous. 

I got that one too. I just deleted and moved on, but I do understand the "form letters". Once one wrote to me, and forgot to take the previous name off the top, I laughed. <shakes head>

MoGa 



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