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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 4:13:30 AM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If the military is a job creation scheme, it is hardly doing what it is supposed to do.


Seriously. What a nightmare!

Why not use that labor pool to fix the U.S. infrastructure that needs both repair and technological advancement? Where are the bullet trains between major cities that we need? Where are the solar energy farms that need building?

Etc.

All you have to do is dream a different dream.

....or at the very least...."Steve Austin, astronaut. A man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster"  
   Actually, we are sadly behind in infrastructure, and technology, and all one has to do is step outside(for those with xenophobia...google) and see the proof.  i don't understand why "patriotic" people take umbrage at that fact.  It's simple, if you truly LOVE America, you'd want it to return to it's former status in the world view. Of course a strong military is important, but a well advanced military should be able to do more with less, relying heavily on technology.  (i think it's safe to say Rosie the Riveter's position is now defunct)  Isolationism is hurtful to the American dream.  So, those of us who view ourselves as Americans, and citizens of the world, and homespun American patriots alike, should actually have the same views on some subjects.  End justifying means et al.

< Message edited by lronitulstahp -- 5/6/2008 4:14:06 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 4:34:43 AM   
makotoSDng


Posts: 3
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		phoenix  i can speak  for myself and a few people i know and call family i wanted to say thank you to your Master and all the other men and woman that have chosen to stand up and defend this country and most of all I'd like to thank the families that are left behind to carry on every day and worry about them. as how cutting down on our budget thats easy i think robin Williams said it........tell the world we are sorry to have offended them pull all our troops out of their countries put them all along our borders so no one can get in without us letting them in.stop sending money over seas to help everyone that cries they need help for food, medical supplies because of natural disaster or looking for a cop to protect them from some warlord or thug that is killing their whole villages because they  are not from the right tribe or religion .....or a mad man set on taking over the world.......sure  we are not perfect but what are the other alternatives ....  

                        makoto

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 4:37:42 AM   
phoenixinchains


Posts: 2534
Joined: 4/5/2007
From: i live here
Status: offline 		Thank You very kindly for your thoughts.

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:07:14 AM   
DomAviator


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Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You dont need over a million personnel to defend the US; in fact you'd likely only need 100,000 professionals to operate all the vehicles and gadgetry and another 10,000 for service and support, with the small arms element of any defensive force made up from the well armed US citizenry.


Actually, this ratio is completely backwards. It is more like you need ten support people for each warfighter - and the current forces reflect this. As a case in point the F/A-18 Hornet requires between 10 and 15 man hours of maintenence for every flight hour. Thus, to fly a 5 hour combat sortie - including flying CAP over our cities, it takes between 50 and 75 man hours in the shop to get it ready to go. Obviously we cant fly it for five hours and then wait 2-1/2 months till the one mechanic gets it ready to go again. Instead 20 men get on it and turn it around in 2-1/2 hours or less. This plane is "low maintenence" - the recently retired F-14 of TopGun fame required over 60 shop hours per flight hour!

On my ship, there were 110 pilots and aircrew and 1800 sailors embarked as part of the air wing. The total ships company was over 5,000. Of that 5,000 only 110 actually went on the missions - ie "fought" - the rest operated the carrier, fixed the planes, loaded ordnance, worked the flight deck, cut hair, filled teeth, ran the reactor and fresh water plants, cooked meals, swabbed toilets, and did the other 1,000,000 jobs that made a carrier run. All "gold wings + dress whites = damp panties" jokes aside, they were every bit as important as we were as we couldnt "go downtown" without them!

The same holds true for the other branches - for every soldier or marine firing a rifle, there are a herd gathering intelligence, fixing tanks, arranging logistics, breaching obstacles, building housing and latrines, cooking meals, cutting paychecks, policing bar fights, and doing the things that make it possible for the comparatively few actual fighting men to do their job! Consider the humble truck driver - where would an advancing army be with no ammo, fuel, spare parts, MRE's or toilet paper???

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:18:21 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Absolutely DomAviator - but in a situation where the US was invaded, I would factor in that you'd be on home soil, hence you'd have access to a lot of civilian specialists to help with your maintenance etc and a lot of civilian resources for your logistics and supplies.

E

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:31:54 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Absolutely DomAviator - but in a situation where the US was invaded, I would factor in that you'd be on home soil, hence you'd have access to a lot of civilian specialists to help with your maintenance etc and a lot of civilian resources for your logistics and supplies.

E


Actually the civilians would be quite useless. The A&P (airframe and powerplant) mechanic who fixes my Cessna (or even the one who fixes jet airliners) has no clue of how to work with the systems on a supersonic military jet. They dont deal with "Over-G'd" targeting pods, or loading chaff and flares, or engines with afterburners, or swing wings (wings that change angle to be optimal for speed) Likewise Joe the Bulldozer Mechanic couldnt fix a tank, which nowadays runs on a gas turbine (jet) engine rather than a diesel... These systems are pretty advanced...

As for defending the homeland - thats exactly what we DONT want to do. You are from the UK I see, and much like in WW2 you didnt want Adolf and His Minions to cross the channels and fight the battle in the English Countryside you want to take the war to their backyard. It is about projection of power. As good of a shot as I am, still I had ordnance go off target and if Im going to accidentally drop a 1000 pound bomb on an elementary school I want it to be a school full of Iraqi kids - not little Texans. Collateral damage is invetiable and the purpose of war is to kill people and break shit. Better to move the battle from your shores so that you are killing their people and breaking their shit rather than your own. This is why the war on terror was taken to Iraq and Afghanistan - its better to kill them over there than in NY City, Washington DC and fields in Pennsylvania. Thats the same reason the Brits took it to Normandy instead of fighting it out in the suburbs of London....

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:37:00 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Absolutely DomAviator - but in a situation where the US was invaded, I would factor in that you'd be on home soil, hence you'd have access to a lot of civilian specialists to help with your maintenance etc and a lot of civilian resources for your logistics and supplies.

E


Who is going to invade the US. Canada or Mexico? The truth is no one has the capability of invading the US even if their military hardware was on par with the US's.

(OK, OK, popeye, I know Mexicans are already invading the US but Mexico isn't.)

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:39:56 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		We spend money on our military so our NATO "partners" don't have to.  i've grown more and more an isolationist and would happily withdraw our military from every country who bitches and moans about our presence there and let them spend their own money defending their own countries.

However, Archer has a very valid point. 

Could we withdraw our military from the bitch and moan countries and still provide a superpower presence?  i think we could.  We could increase the economy of our own country instead of providing an ecomonic base to the bitch and moan countries.  Then if we would adopt the immigration laws that are in place in Australia and enforce them, we would further benefit our economy, strengthen our boarders and still ensure our safety.

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:42:28 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Its all academic DA - no one could or would risk an invasion, and no one would ever seriously suggest removing the ability to project force outside your borders.

But I believe my point still stands - you would need 10,000 professionals; the rest of the jobs can be done by just about anyone. You have after all, the factories, the transport and storage, the food supplies, the police, fire department, hospitals et al right on your doorstep if youre fighting from home, all with their own specialist personnel, and plenty of people to fill those other positions which dont require so much training or equipment - digging latrines and the like.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:45:09 AM   
MissAnthropic


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline 		Dear Lady Ellen,

What a load of bullshit. You can't possibly think America can afford to demilitarise?? Best start brushing up on your chinese and indonesian...if America ever demilitarises you might need it. I see no demilitarising from any other country that indicates we are about to have a period of peace and prosperity for all...

/me looks glazed at her Indonesian language book and Arabic phrase book. In Shallah....

What exactly were you going to do when the America is next attacked, have at them with a balloon on a stick or spank thier bottoms because they were naughty?

Dear DomAviator,

Thanks You for Your service Sir. It is good to know someone is prepared to put thier life on the line for people like Lady Ellen, though one does wonder WHY??

cheers

jess


(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:50:03 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

We spend money on our military so our NATO "partners" don't have to.  i've grown more and more an isolationist and would happily withdraw our military from every country who bitches and moans about our presence there and let them spend their own money defending their own countries.

However, Archer has a very valid point. 

Could we withdraw our military from the bitch and moan countries and still provide a superpower presence?  i think we could.  We could increase the economy of our own country instead of providing an ecomonic base to the bitch and moan countries.  Then if we would adopt the immigration laws that are in place in Australia and enforce them, we would further benefit our economy, strengthen our boarders and still ensure our safety.


I've watched US TV and it over emphasises how much countries bitch and moan and how much countries want a US presence in their country.

Take the renewing of the US radar station in the north of England. The British government OKed that under the table without telling the British people because its only a fucking small minority (mainly  southerners) want it their, the people who live in the area want to see it gone. Same with the new bases in Poland and Czech, the vast majority of both populations don't want any American bases. As far as I can tell most Germans want the Americans out of their country too. It is the political elites that make deals with the US against the wishes of their populations which is the reason everyone bitches and moans. Nothing against ordinary Americans but most Europeans wish the US military would fuck off back to America.

And pulleeze, no 'We won WWII for you.'. That was 60 years ago and you didn't win it you were on the winning side.

My parents generation were very grateful but there is such a thing as overstaying ones wellcome, especially when its a military presence. There is a time when a liberation starts very much to feel like an occupation (I'm empathizing with Iraqis) and that started a long time ago.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/6/2008 5:55:42 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:55:14 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAnthropic

Dear Lady Ellen,

What a load of bullshit. You can't possibly think America can afford to demilitarise?? Best start brushing up on your chinese and indonesian...if America ever demilitarises you might need it. I see no demilitarising from any other country that indicates we are about to have a period of peace and prosperity for all...

/me looks glazed at her Indonesian language book and Arabic phrase book. In Shallah....

What exactly were you going to do when the America is next attacked, have at them with a balloon on a stick or spank thier bottoms because they were naughty?

Dear DomAviator,

Thanks You for Your service Sir. It is good to know someone is prepared to put thier life on the line for people like Lady Ellen, though one does wonder WHY??

cheers

jess




WTF ARE YOU ON?

PLEASE - TELL ME WHERE I SAID THAT THE US SHOULD DEMILITARISE?

PLEASE - TELL ME WHERE I INSULTED ANY SERVICE PERSONNEL?

PLEASE TAKE SOME ENGLISH COMPREHENSION LESSONS!

AND YES, I AM SHOUTING, BECAUSE ITS JUST FAR TOO OFTEN ON HERE THAT PEOPLE FAIL TO READ WHAT IS WRITTEN, COMPREHEND IT AND THEN RESPOND APPROPRIATELY.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:56:19 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Take the renewing of the US radar station in the north of England. The British government OKed that under the table without telling the British people because its only a fucking small minority (mainly  southerners) want it their, the people who live in the area want to see it gone. .....

Nothing against ordinary Americans but most Europeans wish the US military would fuck off back to America.
\


You sure wanted us there when you were "shitting your knickers" as the V-2's lobbed in and your troops were training with broomsticks because they didnt have guns and you were waitng for the lend-lease ships to come with supplies... Sprechen ze Deutchse? Nope? Well your welcome - because otherwise you would be....

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/6/2008 5:57:54 AM >

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:58:48 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

We spend money on our military so our NATO "partners" don't have to.  i've grown more and more an isolationist and would happily withdraw our military from every country who bitches and moans about our presence there and let them spend their own money defending their own countries.

However, Archer has a very valid point. 

Could we withdraw our military from the bitch and moan countries and still provide a superpower presence?  i think we could.  We could increase the economy of our own country instead of providing an ecomonic base to the bitch and moan countries.  Then if we would adopt the immigration laws that are in place in Australia and enforce them, we would further benefit our economy, strengthen our boarders and still ensure our safety.


I've watched US TV and it over emphasises how much countries bitch and moan and how much countries want a US presence in their country.

Take the renewing of the US radar station in the north of England. The British government OKed that under the table without telling the British people because its only a fucking small minority (mainly  southerners) want it their, the people who live in the area want to see it gone. Same with the new bases in Poland and Czech, the vast majority of both populations don't want any American bases. As far as I can tell most Germans want the Americans out of their country too. It is the political elites that make deals with the US against the wishes of their populations which is the reason everyone bitches and moans. Nothing against ordinary Americans but most Europeans wish the US military would fuck off back to America.

And pulleeze, no 'We won WWII for you.'. That was 60 years ago and you didn't win it you were on the winning side.

My parents generation were very grateful but there is such a thing as overstaying ones wellcome, especially when its a military presence. There is a time when a liberation starts very much to feel like an occupation (I'm empathizing with Iraqis) and that started a long time ago.


Exactly!!  i can't see spending one more dime of my tax money on you.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 6:00:15 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Take the renewing of the US radar station in the north of England. The British government OKed that under the table without telling the British people because its only a fucking small minority (mainly  southerners) want it their, the people who live in the area want to see it gone. .....

Nothing against ordinary Americans but most Europeans wish the US military would fuck off back to America.
\


Youi sure wanted us there when you were "shitting your knickers" as the V-2's lobbed in and your troops were training with broomsticks because they didnt have guns and you were waitng for the lend-lease ships to come with supplies... Srechen ze Deutchse? Nope? Well your welcome - because otherwise you would be....


You weren't there!!!!!!!!!

The war started in 1939, not 7th December 1941 and it wouldn't have started then for you if Japan hadn't attacked you, so don't start that 7th Cavalry coming over the hill bullshit, the Battle of Britain was won and the war was beginning to turn before America joined in.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 6:03:54 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

And pulleeze, no 'We won WWII for you.'. That was 60 years ago and you didn't win it you were on the winning side.


Ooops!  My bad.  i forgot... you had FRANCE helping you.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 6:06:00 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		AND JUST TO ADD "MISCOMPREHENDING" - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHATEVER WHO I AM AND WHAT I MIGHT HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE, DO YOU?

YOU HAVE NO IDEA, AND YET YOU CHOOSE TO INSULT ME WITH VAGUE ACCUSATIONS OF BEING COWARDLY AND UNGRATEFUL FOR THE EFFORTS MADE BY PEOPLE IN OUR ARMED FORCES?

PLEASE - FEEL FREE TO COMB OVER ALL MY SEVERAL THOUSAND POSTS HERE, AND FIND ONE WHICH SUPPORTS YOUR VIEW OF ME?

ALTERNATIVELY, KEEP YOUR IGNORANT AND ARROGANT IDEAS TO YOURSELF AND GO FIND SOMEONE YOU CAN ACCUSE AND INSULT BASED ON SOMETHING YOU CAN PROVE THEY DID SAY OR DO OR DIDNT SAY OR DO.

E

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 6:08:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

And pulleeze, no 'We won WWII for you.'. That was 60 years ago and you didn't win it you were on the winning side.


Ooops!  My bad.  i forgot... you had FRANCE helping you.


We also had Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, The West Indies, many African countries, thousands of soldiers from occupied countries, Russia and I'm sure there is someone I missed.....oh yes, the USA.

The fact is,once the Germans had lost the Battle of Britain there was no way they could win the war and that happened before the USA entered the war.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/6/2008 6:10:21 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 6:20:36 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The US supplied a lot of hardware and resources (and covert help against the U Boats) to us, well before it joined the war officially.

Some of that supply went on to help the Russians - without it, Russia might well have collapsed. And in the end, it was the Russians who defeated the nazis, and the rest of us who had the comparatively easy job in the west.

Now there's a thing eh? The nazis were defeated by all of us acting together. If the US hadnt supplied the UK and the UK hadnt taken those supplies through the Arctic to the Russians, the Russians would have been defeated and D Day would never have happened since we'd be facing the entire nazi force - including all the best units otherwise tied up and massacred on the eastern front.

What's troublesome about all this "7th Cavalry" mindset, is that all that help and all those supplies were paid for. It was a commercial transaction - not some bold act of aid to a country in distress.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 6:22:29 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Now there's a thing eh? The nazis were defeated by all of us acting together. If the US hadnt supplied the UK and the UK hadnt taken those supplies through the Arctic to the Russians, the Russians would have been defeated and D Day would never have happened since we'd be facing the entire nazi force - including all the best units otherwise tied up and massacred on the eastern front.



As I initially said, the US was on the winning side, they didn't win the war all by themselves. It was a real war, not a Hollywood war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
What's troublesome about all this "7th Cavalry" mindset, is that all that help and all those supplies were paid for. It was a commercial transaction - not some bold act of aid to a country in distress.


Precisely.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/6/2008 6:23:48 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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