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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 2:05:35 PM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

That presence JustMe, was a totally unnecessary one and an extremely stupid move, motivated by hopes for the exact reverse situation with regard to access to resources as has actually obtained. Now though, its entirely necessary to remain there to prevent Iran taking over. Saddam had the whole thing under control to our advantage, wouldnt tolerate any loyalty to anyone or thing but him (giving Islamicists no chance)- and we had Saddam under control.

E


I fully agree with that last part. It was better then..with Sadam...even for the population.
Sadly we can't turn it back. But if you are not wanted somewhere, you should leave.
America needs to money for netter causes.

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 2:06:06 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

Just WHY Hitler chose to declare war is still a matter of hot debate among historians.



The German strategy of that time was one of opportunism governed by a broad objective of conquering land - preferably in Eastern Europe - so their intentions will always be debated. There simply was no blue print for the Germans.

But, the Nazis were obsessed with racial theories, so my view is that all of their actions were in some way driven by this obsession.

Furthermore, the view that England and the United States were destroying European culture due to their focus on commerce, was a widely held belief among conservative Germans in the 19th and early 20th centuries. My estimate is that the Nazis believed that England and the United States shared more similarities than differences and felt that the United States would come in on the side of England at some point. He may have felt that while the Japanese and Germans were strong, and the Americans and English unprepared for war, it was the right time for what they believed to be a preventative action. The Germans had recent form for preventative actions, too.

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 2:10:38 PM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

Just WHY Hitler chose to declare war is still a matter of hot debate among historians.



The German strategy of that time was one of opportunism governed by a broad objective of conquering land - preferably in Eastern Europe - so their intentions will always be debated. There simply was no blue print for the Germans.


German conquered the eastwards countries to be together with the Germans still living there since the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_Czechoslovakia_(1918-1938)#History_of_Sudeten_Germans

other reasons were oil (Romania and Russia) and just the hatred against everything "red" and power ofcourse.



< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/6/2008 2:11:45 PM >

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 2:42:25 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

You know, there are some obstacles stemming from history when it comes to the German military and fighting.
I would not count on that changing too soon.


Verstanden Sandra, aber die Gruender dafuer sind ueber 60 Jahren alt. Was in der alten Welt vielleicht angemessen war, und noetig um Deutschland und das deutschen Volk sich zu reparieren zu lassen ist in unserer neuen Welt nicht mehr angemessen und nicht mehr noetig. Deutsche Soldaten glaube ich, wuerden die Greueltaeter die man von den Soldaten unseres Landes erlebt hat, nicht machen, und auf diesem Grund, zusaetzlich den anderen Gruendern, ist es noetig geworden dass Deutschland eine grosseren Rolle hier spielt. "Hearts and Minds" ist ein Kampf wobei deutsche Soldaten viel anbieten wuerden, und die einzelne Methode wobei wir diesen Krieg gewinnen werden.

E

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 3:09:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		LadyEllen my views on Iraq are known on this site… I believe all Americans are at fault because we not only, as a people, agreed with the invasion of Iraq but also encouraged it. We were given false information yes but… as the truth came out we as a people did nothing to stop it.

NOW the Iraqi people are at fault…all they have to do for us to leave is form a true representative government. They just can’t put their hate aside for the benefit of their children.

It is time for us to leave or at least give them a solid schedule for withdrawal…this will force them to form a workable government… or the alternative…death and destruction. It should be up to them.

We owe them nothing more then the American lives we gave them.
Butch

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 3:30:01 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Its no longer a question of who was at fault and its no longer a question of anyone owing anything to anyone else. That will be for history and maybe the courts to decide.

Its a question of ensuring that Iran's aims are limited, because if they get their way now that we have opened it for them, we'll all be the worse off for it.

E

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 3:44:43 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I have an uneducated opinion of Iran and its future. I believe the people of Iran are on the whole fairly well educated. The younger generation is tired of the tyrannical rule of the religious fanatics. They are also tired of war and sacrifice and over the next 10 years will overthrow the grip of the mullahs.

If we don't drive them deeper into their shell with aggressive policies I believe in a short time they could and will be our friends.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 3:57:41 PM   
MissAnthropic


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline 		Dear All,

It simply makes no sense, I see a lot of emotive responses but little rationality in this thread. When the world is a perfect place, we can afford to demilitarise ( though will there be a threat for out of this world one day?), until then it behooves the allies to maintain the balance of control or our freedom and way of life will be lost. What have the threats been? Communism, Fascism, Religious Zealots and Terrorism.

This silliness of anyone thinking we could have won any of those wars alone is beyond contemplation or indeed that it was about winning instead of maintaining that balance.We need to learn to work together, our governments have known this for some decades. The American govt is no less aware of thier need for the rest of the allies than we are painfully aware of the threat from Indonesia here in Oz and our need for both our own military and America and Britian et al. as allies.

cheers

jess


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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 4:56:24 PM   
chaosforge


Posts: 397
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: The Abyss
Status: offline 		   The military is made up of soldiers, men and women with a job to do. We are not the ones who want war. Our families
do not want war.
 
  It is not the soldiers that want to be in other countries. It is the leaders/governments of some of those countries that want
us to be there. Their government that ask our government to send us there. If the people of those countries want us gone,
then talk to the governments that asked for the assistance of U.S. troops.
 
  Ask many soldiers about Iraq, and you will be told that it should have never got to this point. We should have
finished the whole matter when the first Bush was in office.
 
 Do I agree with the President? No, and I didn't vote for him either. Understand, as soldiers, we are obligated
to our  government, that doesn't mean we agree with it.
 
 Oppinions be what they may, the United States Armed Forces aren't going to disappear.
 
-Chaosforge

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CHAOS !!!

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 5:21:00 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Honestly, we had over 12 years of Iraqi troops firing at US and UN aircraft patrolling the no fly zone.  I believe that it was only cowardice that kept us from acting during those years.
As for what would happen if we demilitarized .... then our only line of defense would be weapons that scientists believe will exterminate all life on earth if we use them.  Would someone invade?  We are a brutal and greedy species who has yet to do anything but pay lip service at being civilized.  Someone would launch an invasion counting on the fact that we don't want to wipe out the entire world.  Why put ourselves in that position?

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 7:14:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

German conquered the eastwards countries to be together with the Germans still living there since the past.




            And the US invaded Iraq over WMD's...

       Don't confuse the propaganda campaign with the real agenda.

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 8:38:13 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Honestly, we had over 12 years of Iraqi troops firing at US and UN aircraft patrolling the no fly zone.  I believe that it was only cowardice that kept us from acting during those years.


It wasn't cowardice - it was that piece of crap that we had for eight years in the White House and his beloved UN. Myself, and the other men who patrolled that no fly zone would have been more than happy to roll in if they so much as painted us with a radar. Frankly, like all the pilots and aircrew I LOVE to fight - blowing up plywood targets in Fallon, Nevada is boring. All we needed to win was to be cleared to engage but Bubba was not having it! Likewise, during the Blackhawk Down incident in Somalia as our rangers were slaughtered 110 Naval aviators sat off the coast on a carrier rearing to get into the fray and to get them off of our men. Instead Bubba made them wait for the freaking Pakistanis to finish their tea and come in the morning.... Comrade Clinton was as close to demilitaization as you can get and look where it got us - the USS Cole and two embassies blown up, 19 rags in flight school in Florida, etc... Clinton was a shining example of why we need a consitutional ammendment that the president must have been a commissioned officer in the US Armed Forces. (Obama's time in Al Queada schools in Indonesia dont count!) Hmmmm, that would leave us McCain...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/6/2008 8:42:53 PM >

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/6/2008 10:15:30 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		If the U.S. would just stay home and get our military out of everyone's backyard we wouldn't have had those problems either. One self-created problem after another. All pursued in the name of forcing trade and our way of life onto those that don't want either.


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 2:13:53 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

You know, there are some obstacles stemming from history when it comes to the German military and fighting.
I would not count on that changing too soon.


Verstanden Sandra, aber die Gruender dafuer sind ueber 60 Jahren alt. Was in der alten Welt vielleicht angemessen war, und noetig um Deutschland und das deutschen Volk sich zu reparieren zu lassen ist in unserer neuen Welt nicht mehr angemessen und nicht mehr noetig. Deutsche Soldaten glaube ich, wuerden die Greueltaeter die man von den Soldaten unseres Landes erlebt hat, nicht machen, und auf diesem Grund, zusaetzlich den anderen Gruendern, ist es noetig geworden dass Deutschland eine grosseren Rolle hier spielt. "Hearts and Minds" ist ein Kampf wobei deutsche Soldaten viel anbieten wuerden, und die einzelne Methode wobei wir diesen Krieg gewinnen werden.

E



I do understand you, and do agree, we should own up and take our place among the other nations, including military responsibility.
But then, I am far removed from the whole Third Reich mess. My grandparents were teens, my parents not even born. That gives me the ability to look upon the situation unbiased.
It will take some more time till we, as a nation, will be able to overcome our guilt. Until then, there will be no possibility of German soldiers fighting.
As for the hope that our soldiers would not commit atrocities in the field? I don't believe in that. In the psychological extremesituation of war, it will come down to the basics again. Fighting humans have commited crimes against humanity since the beginning of time.

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 2:34:42 AM   
DomAviator


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Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

As for the hope that our soldiers would not commit atrocities in the field? I don't believe in that. In the psychological extremesituation of war, it will come down to the basics again. Fighting humans have commited crimes against humanity since the beginning of time.


Crimes against humanity are a freaking joke. The only crime in war is LOSING! Never in history have the victors faced a tribunal for crimes against humanity - which is a damn good thing. Technically speaking "the Highway of Death" on the last night of Gulf War Part 1 was a "war crime". Thats what the rags call it anyway - I myself found it to be a damn fine way to end the war and to up my tally of combat sorties because I might not have gotten another chance to attack anything but plywood in Fallon for the rest of my career. Before the war started - there was one man in my entire squadron - the old man - who had ever flown a strike. We need to desensitize to what the military does - the purpose of war is to kill people and break things at a rate unacceptable to the enemy. If we remove the embedded media and stop armchair quarterbacking the war effort maybe we can kick some ass and get the job done. Only two countries ever played by the rules of war - Nazi Germany and US! We woke up and opened up Gitmo and Abu G'Raib.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/7/2008 2:35:40 AM >

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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 2:41:20 AM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

German conquered the eastwards countries to be together with the Germans still living there since the past.




           And the US invaded Iraq over WMD's...

      Don't confuse the propaganda campaign with the real agenda.


Well I had a lot of fights with American's in the beginning of the IRak war. I always said it was about oil.
It is just recently that many eyes opened.

Propaganda can't be confused with the real agenda, they go hand inhand. Don't confuse an opinion by facts btw ;)
Hitler did a lot of lying and chaeting for propaganda. A lott wasn't needed later anymore..and his thoughts became public early. Deportation of the jews was never hidden (therefor no need of propaganda to justify it). People just say now..they didn't know. That is crap..and there is much research done.
Propaganda is to easily used to justify not acting. If people have brains, you know that.

But back to the conquering of the east. To have a "great Reich" you gather first your people in one country. He did that. As the Kaisers before him did also. There is no need for propaganda or hidden agenda's for it. Europe was before WW2 constant in war. People always tried to expand their countries. War is in the human nature.

Gladly people that are egocentric like Hitler and even Bush (not comparing him with the deeds Hitler did) end badly. Sadly..they ruin a lott for the country.

i think patriotisme has his nice sides...but blinds people too. Germany had that and in a different way the USA has it too.
On the other side...in my country..there is lack of patriotisme, which is bad too


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RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 3:18:38 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

 19 rags in flight school in Florida
  beg pardon...is this military slang for something???
~spicniggertonto 
i mean it's the natural conclusion to this kind of thinking, right?  Figure i'd save you the effort of having to think of what to call me...being all mixed up and stuff....

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 3:31:36 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah, I'd appreciate if the "rags" shit were left off my thread, Aviator.

< Message edited by Level -- 5/7/2008 3:32:19 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 4:00:52 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Problem is DA, there are two ways to take this present situation forwards

One is to try to keep as many Muslims on the side of peace, justice and reconciliation, whilst sorting out those who want to kill us and resolving the issues that have generated hatred against us.

The other is to treat every Muslim as subhuman, generate more hatred and violence towards us and eventually face many more attacks.

One road leads to peace, the other leads to death camps. I prefer peace to death camps though of course others might feel differently.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Demilitarizing America - 5/7/2008 8:27:14 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Dom, I hope you realize that Iwas also serving at that time and would never call our soldiers cowards.  Their leaders?  WQell that could be another story.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 100
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