RE: Demilitarizing America (Full Version)

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MissAnthropic -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 6:28:27 AM)

Dear All,

It is far too simplistic to pick and choose countries to support based upon some popular media trends that you see by a vocal minority. I assure you that desire has very little to do with military strategy. The strategically suitable bases are there with the full support of the respective governments who know they would be overrun without America and the Western Block countries know as the Allies to support and defend them, and to defend what we call "the free world". It may seem like an insignificant thing, but voting is a privledge most countries simply don't have.

The middle east is a key area and we have always had some force there in countries like Saudi Arabia.

Dont think military strategists get thier intelligence from places like CNN. It is as illogical as saying:

If Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, then we have good reason to invade.
Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction.
Therefore we have no good reasons to invade.

It is an invalid syllogism. There were many reasons to invade, they just havent hit the popular press. We don't like to be perceived as making the tough decisions, but the reality is sometimes we have no choice but to act. We're very fortunate to have people who are prepared to do that on our behalf. To ask them to do so with one hand and both feet tied behind thier backs or lack of support crew and support from thier fellow countrymen is imho unreasonable.

cheers

jess



eyesopened -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 6:37:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

And pulleeze, no 'We won WWII for you.'. That was 60 years ago and you didn't win it you were on the winning side.


Ooops!  My bad.  i forgot... you had FRANCE helping you.


We also had Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, The West Indies, many African countries, thousands of soldiers from occupied countries, Russia and I'm sure there is someone I missed.....oh yes, the USA.

The fact is,once the Germans had lost the Battle of Britain there was no way they could win the war and that happened before the USA entered the war.


Again, i could not agree with you more!  i cannot see spending one more penny on Britain because i'm sure the other countries will be more than happy to pitch in in the future.  You're preaching to the choir here.  A prime example of how the US is wasting money there and in Germany and all the other NATO countries.  It is your attitude that has made me more and more isolationist.  We don't need Britian for anything.  Hell, even the BBC has gotten boring lately. 



LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 6:49:23 AM)

The US has bases wherever the commercial interests of the US require bases. It is incidental to that cause that the rights and freedoms of the natives are also protected (or indeed suppressed, as is amenable) by such presence.

As for Iraq - the WMD thing was a total ruse - the invasion was about............... protecting commercial interests. That we went along with it for no gain to us is the only mystery.

The point is that you really do need to get real about all this stuff. We had the largest Empire on the planet until very recently - we went about trumpeting what good fellows we must be to provide protection to all those people - but it was always about one thing, and one thing only - commercial interests. We had the patriotic thing too - how Britain and the British were the chosen people, destiny and all that garbage, and we sent thousands of brave, dutiful men and women to fight and die to prove it - and all the time it was about commercial interests.

If only there could be some honesty about it - that might maketh right and everyone and every country does whatever it takes to survive and prosper. But then, that would be morally reprehensible - so instead its covered over with ruses to keep the people believing.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:01:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Again, i could not agree with you more!  i cannot see spending one more penny on Britain because i'm sure the other countries will be more than happy to pitch in in the future.  You're preaching to the choir here.  A prime example of how the US is wasting money there and in Germany and all the other NATO countries.  It is your attitude that has made me more and more isolationist.  We don't need Britian for anything.  Hell, even the BBC has gotten boring lately. 


The US doesnt spend money on Britain, wasted or not.

The US spends money on bases in Britain to protect US commercial interests in Europe.

Strangely enough, we dont need any money from anyone - for the moment anyway, who knows though when the almighty fuck up caused by the US banks truly hits?

E



LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:04:07 AM)

In a perfect world I'm all for pulling our troops out of nations where the majority doesn't want us there and letting them fend for themselves. I'm also all for pulling any humanitarian funds and commercial business and funds from their countries as well and bringing the jobs back to America.  Then we can set the troops up around our borders and further protect our own selfish interests.
 
But, the truth is I'm going to go to church and hear how our missionaries need more money to provide some poverty stricken nation's children with vaccines, education supplies, etc and I'm going to donate.  I'm going to turn the tv on and see that some disaster has hit this country or that and that thousands are left homeless and I'm going to donate.
 
To me this entire thread has seemed to veer off the OT to a hate all Americans thread.  When the truth is there are some of us Americans who see those in need as human beings and believe its our responsibility to lend aid.  But, your right maybe its time we focus on saving our own for once.



DomAviator -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:05:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


As for Iraq - the WMD thing was a total ruse - the invasion was about............... protecting commercial interests. That we went along with it for no gain to us is the only mystery.



I concur it was a ruse but not for commercial interests - it was to shape the battlefield and to move the fight off our shores. The fact is that US Marines pissing on the walls of sacred mosques and Army soldiers making naked feces smeared muslim men pose with panties on their heads pisses off the terrorists - who flocked to Iraq to attack in their anger and outrage, As a result approx 100,000 iraqi civilians are dead and there hasnt been a single us terrorist victim in the CONUS since 2001.  Like I said, there will be collateral damage and better it is there than here... [:D] Sucks to be them but oh well, the muslims get their little tempers worked up and they go in the market in Baghdad and blow themselves up. Good riddance. Brilliant move - kind of like why we took the battle to the beaches of Normandy instead of the streets of London. Break someone elses shit and kill someone elses people. Someone has to die and it damn well wont be us. Nothing to do with commercial interests at all.



eyesopened -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:06:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Again, i could not agree with you more!  i cannot see spending one more penny on Britain because i'm sure the other countries will be more than happy to pitch in in the future.  You're preaching to the choir here.  A prime example of how the US is wasting money there and in Germany and all the other NATO countries.  It is your attitude that has made me more and more isolationist.  We don't need Britian for anything.  Hell, even the BBC has gotten boring lately. 


The US doesnt spend money on Britain, wasted or not.

The US spends money on bases in Britain to protect US commercial interests in Europe.

Strangely enough, we dont need any money from anyone - for the moment anyway, who knows though when the almighty fuck up caused by the US banks truly hits?

E


Oh many pardons!  i should have said, spend money BEING in Britian.  And i cannot see spending another moment there!  In fact, i do believe it would be wise to stop being tourists or have any commerical dealings with Europe where we are so hated.  Hell, we can be hated in countries with much nicer climates.



Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:15:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

In a perfect world I'm all for pulling our troops out of nations where the majority doesn't want us there and letting them fend for themselves.


And in a 'less than perfect world' you would support the continuance of American occupation of foreign countries where the wishes of the "majority" is being ignored.?

This, no doubt, would be American-style 'democratic principles' in action.

quote:
I'm also all for pulling any humanitarian funds and commercial business and funds from their countries as well and bringing the jobs back to America.  Then we can set the troops up around our borders and further protect our own selfish interests.


I'm all for that too, the economic boom for the rest of the world after America leaves all those economic niches would be tremendous.

The world might not even need economic aid from America after that.

But, the truth is I'm going to go to church and hear how our missionaries need more money to provide some poverty stricken nation's children with vaccines, education supplies, etc and I'm going to donate.  I'm going to turn the tv on and see that some disaster has hit this country or that and that thousands are left homeless and I'm going to donate.
 
To me this entire thread has seemed to veer off the OT to a hate all Americans thread.  When the truth is there are some of us Americans who see those in need as human beings and believe its our responsibility to lend aid.  But, your right maybe its time we focus on saving our own for once.


As long as your great leader (and so many others who voted for him, twice) condones torture and Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo ... please, save your own and leave us be.



LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:16:40 AM)

The negativity is coming from the US side, when the reality is pointed out and contradicts the propaganda.

You have to remember - we've been there, done that and got the T-shirts of almost every ethnicity and culture on the planet. We did it for two centuries. Whatever the US does, we did it much worse in terms of the carnage and suffering and exploitation caused to others. This is why the US has always valued a good relationship with the UK until this current and thank goodness outgoing administration - we're the past masters at all this. It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E



eyesopened -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:30:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The negativity is coming from the US side, when the reality is pointed out and contradicts the propaganda.

You have to remember - we've been there, done that and got the T-shirts of almost every ethnicity and culture on the planet. We did it for two centuries. Whatever the US does, we did it much worse in terms of the carnage and suffering and exploitation caused to others. This is why the US has always valued a good relationship with the UK until this current and thank goodness outgoing administration - we're the past masters at all this. It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E


What negativity?  i totally agree with you to get the fuck out of europe and stay out.  That would include any private money spent there, any goods purchased from europe  If it were up to me, we would not allow foreign citizens to own businesses or property in the United States.  They don't need us, we don't need them. 

Oh, and so sorry about foreign aid.... let's feed and provide medicine to our own citizens first.



MissAnthropic -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:32:22 AM)

Dear Lil Miss Haven,

Well said! I applaud someone recognising that we as a society have a social responsability to attempt to leave the world in better shape than what we started with. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and social responsability is one of those things we have opportunity to contribute to, if only we could do it wisely and rationally. I also agree that the majority dont have the ability to make strategical decisions because they have neither the education or the information at hand to make those decisions, thats what we hire the military to do for us. It is a very specialised field, with greats like churchill, george washington, napoleon, alexander the great et al having developed same. We do vote for governments based upon thier willingness to do what needs to be done to protect and serve us the peoples. If your unhappy with your countries situation, then use the resources we have at hand to change that decision, ie vote. Bitching never solved anything. It just irritates the fuckery out of the very few people who go out there and get the job done. This is what we empowered our elected officials to do on our behalf. Badgering our servicemen unjustly for doing a job  is downright disrespectful.

Lest we forget.

cheers

jess








DomAviator -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:33:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The negativity is coming from the US side, when the reality is pointed out and contradicts the propaganda.

You have to remember - we've been there, done that and got the T-shirts of almost every ethnicity and culture on the planet. We did it for two centuries. Whatever the US does, we did it much worse in terms of the carnage and suffering and exploitation caused to others. This is why the US has always valued a good relationship with the UK until this current and thank goodness outgoing administration - we're the past masters at all this. It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E


Still bitter about that asskicking in 1776? Or was it the asskicking in 1812? Yes it all went wrong when the US told the ancestors of the big eared inbred married to the horse faced hag to bugger off... LOL How dare we??? Oh, thats right we won the war and ran them right out of the colonies! Yes the UK really had the how to run an empire thing down pat... Its not like there was any issue with Wallace at Sterling Bridge or 800 years of pissed off Irishmen, or Ol' Ned Kelley in Aust. Nope its all us Yanks cause we stopped listening to the old bat with her inbred sons...  Again, your welcome! It would be so hard to type this in German and thanks to us pesty yanks you dont have to...

Now the original topic was demilitarizing America and getting back to topic - not feasible. Not gonna happen. Speak softly and carry a big stick and all that... We would be fools to hand over our stick and think we can hold hands with terrorists and sing Kumbaya....



LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:41:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The negativity is coming from the US side, when the reality is pointed out and contradicts the propaganda.

You have to remember - we've been there, done that and got the T-shirts of almost every ethnicity and culture on the planet. We did it for two centuries. Whatever the US does, we did it much worse in terms of the carnage and suffering and exploitation caused to others. This is why the US has always valued a good relationship with the UK until this current and thank goodness outgoing administration - we're the past masters at all this. It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E


What negativity?  i totally agree with you to get the fuck out of europe and stay out.  That would include any private money spent there, any goods purchased from europe  If it were up to me, we would not allow foreign citizens to own businesses or property in the United States.  They don't need us, we don't need them. 

Oh, and so sorry about foreign aid.... let's feed and provide medicine to our own citizens first.


I didnt say the US or its citizens should get out of Europe

In fact, from the evidence from this thread, I would recommend many to come and visit the UK, to improve their command of English.

And believe it or not, we dont receive foreign aid - we donate it - ie we the taxpayers, who like your taxpayers get to back the banks' loans to all these countries (spent on products supplied by us), which loans when they default are passed back to the guarantors - we the taxpayers; exactly like in the US.

Like I said, youre all getting your knickers in a twist because the chant of USA! USA! USA! has been interrupted by some reality checks.

E



LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:48:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E

 
To me and please by all means feel free to correct me if I have mistaken your words...but it sounds like your angry because you didn't get your way.
 
 



LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:52:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The negativity is coming from the US side, when the reality is pointed out and contradicts the propaganda.

You have to remember - we've been there, done that and got the T-shirts of almost every ethnicity and culture on the planet. We did it for two centuries. Whatever the US does, we did it much worse in terms of the carnage and suffering and exploitation caused to others. This is why the US has always valued a good relationship with the UK until this current and thank goodness outgoing administration - we're the past masters at all this. It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E


What negativity?  i totally agree with you to get the fuck out of europe and stay out.  That would include any private money spent there, any goods purchased from europe  If it were up to me, we would not allow foreign citizens to own businesses or property in the United States.  They don't need us, we don't need them. 

Oh, and so sorry about foreign aid.... let's feed and provide medicine to our own citizens first.


I didnt say the US or its citizens should get out of Europe

In fact, from the evidence from this thread, I would recommend many to come and visit the UK, to improve their command of English.

And believe it or not, we dont receive foreign aid - we donate it - ie we the taxpayers, who like your taxpayers get to back the banks' loans to all these countries (spent on products supplied by us), which loans when they default are passed back to the guarantors - we the taxpayers; exactly like in the US.

Like I said, youre all getting your knickers in a twist because the chant of USA! USA! USA! has been interrupted by some reality checks.

E


Ok I think I can see where your going more clearly now.  I'm not trying to chant USA! USA! because obviously we have just as many infrastructure issues as any other nation out there.

So, I apologize for my earlier defensiveness...and who knows maybe your right perhaps all major military influences should just pull any aid, jobs and military personel from other countries and focus on their own people's needs for awhile.



meatcleaver -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:52:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The negativity is coming from the US side, when the reality is pointed out and contradicts the propaganda.

You have to remember - we've been there, done that and got the T-shirts of almost every ethnicity and culture on the planet. We did it for two centuries. Whatever the US does, we did it much worse in terms of the carnage and suffering and exploitation caused to others. This is why the US has always valued a good relationship with the UK until this current and thank goodness outgoing administration - we're the past masters at all this. It all went wrong when the US stopped listening to the counsel of the UK and the UK started listening to the counsel of the US.

E


Still bitter about that asskicking in 1776? Or was it the asskicking in 1812? Yes it all went wrong when the US told the ancestors of the big eared inbred married to the horse faced hag to bugger off... LOL How dare we??? Oh, thats right we won the war and ran them right out of the colonies! Yes the UK really had the how to run an empire thing down pat... Its not like there was any issue with Wallace at Sterling Bridge or 800 years of pissed off Irishmen, or Ol' Ned Kelley in Aust. Nope its all us Yanks cause we stopped listening to the old bat with her inbred sons...  Again, your welcome! It would be so hard to type this in German and thanks to us pesty yanks you dont have to...

Now the original topic was demilitarizing America and getting back to topic - not feasible. Not gonna happen. Speak softly and carry a big stick and all that... We would be fools to hand over our stick and think we can hold hands with terrorists and sing Kumbaya....


Actually we surrendered to the French not you, in a side show in a bigger war that Churchill called the first world war between the British, French and Spanish Empires. But hey, don't let me spoil your national mythology.



LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:57:20 AM)

I'm angry that the UK and the US have been bogged down in Iraq, which had nothing to do with terrorism before we got there, over the commercial interests of a few - and so could not apply the resources required to sort out the real problem elsewhere.

But more than that, we're all bogged down in Iraq because of the lack of even the most rudimentary understanding of geopolitical realities and the effect of removing a valuable pawn in Saddam Hussein.

And more than that, that thousands of US and UK service personnel have been killed, mutilated and otherwise scarred for life, fighting the wrong war in the wrong place, whilst the enemy laughs.

E



eyesopened -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 7:57:46 AM)

Don't understand why you are getting your knickers in a twist because i am agreeing with you.  Sheesh, wonder what it would be like to disagree with you.

However, my comment about foreign aid wasn't directed at GB, but i guess you are just as egotistical as us damn yankees.

i'll say it again.  Great Britian (indeed all of Europe) doesn't need us, we don't need them.  i'm all for making the divorce final.



meatcleaver -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:01:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

And pulleeze, no 'We won WWII for you.'. That was 60 years ago and you didn't win it you were on the winning side.


Ooops!  My bad.  i forgot... you had FRANCE helping you.


We also had Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, The West Indies, many African countries, thousands of soldiers from occupied countries, Russia and I'm sure there is someone I missed.....oh yes, the USA.

The fact is,once the Germans had lost the Battle of Britain there was no way they could win the war and that happened before the USA entered the war.


Again, i could not agree with you more!  i cannot see spending one more penny on Britain because i'm sure the other countries will be more than happy to pitch in in the future.  You're preaching to the choir here.  A prime example of how the US is wasting money there and in Germany and all the other NATO countries.  It is your attitude that has made me more and more isolationist.  We don't need Britian for anything.  Hell, even the BBC has gotten boring lately. 


Let's get this straight, the US has military bases in Europe are here for its own commecial interests which is 'big money' and  European governments want the US here to protect 'big money' which is the reason the US has such a big military in the first place. If you really think the US military is so big for no other reason than protecting US citizens I think you are naive and I think Europeans who believe the US is over here for their protection are also naive. 'Big money' is what its all about, not me, not you and not any small fry like us. We don't matter in the scheme of things and wars on terror and bogeymen like Iran are convenient scarey monsters to keep people in their place.

This really isn't about your average American or average Europen, its about 'Big money' and while we argue over nationalism and patriotism and national mythologies we are doing what governments and 'big money' wants us to do, which is not asking the right questions.



LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:02:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

...and who knows maybe your right perhaps all major military influences should just pull any aid, jobs and military personel from other countries and focus on their own people's needs for awhile.


and again - I didnt say or even suggest that!

I am saying and suggesting that no one is going to withdraw their military power, whatever anyone might propose as a moral reason to do so - because the ability to project military power protects and extends the commercial interests of a nation.

I am saying and suggesting that it all needs to be viewed with this reality of the situation in mind, and not whatever propaganda reasons are advanced to the populace.

E



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