RE: Demilitarizing America (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:08:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i'll say it again.  Great Britian (indeed all of Europe) doesn't need us, we don't need them.  i'm all for making the divorce final.


A divorce would be foolish and unnecessary. Whether we fall out or not, the rest of the world views us as one adversary or competitor, and our response must be united as far as possible.

What is required, is for the European countries who choose (basically because the US is there) not to spend on their militaries, to step up to the plate and make a contribution to the whole which is in line with their ability to do so.

For instance, Germany - a larger population than we have in the UK and a more prosperous one too. Yet who provides thousands of troops for Afghanistan's combat zones and who provides a few logistics types far from the firing lines?

E




BamaD -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:09:37 AM)

It is interesting that Churchill said that Dec 7 1941 was the first good nights sleep he had had in a very long time because it was the first time he new our side would win.




JohnWarren -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:15:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

It is interesting that Churchill said that Dec 7 1941 was the first good nights sleep he had had in a very long time because it was the first time he new our side would win.


I find that odd since Germany did not declare war until December 11th.... something it was NOT required to do because the Axis Treaty was defensive in nature and could not be envoked if any of the members was an aggresssor.

While it is true that Roosevelt wanted to come of England's aid, had not Germany declared war he would have faced considerable resistence from both the Congress and the military had he tried unilaterally to envolve us in a two-front war.  Without the German declaration, we probably would have fought only against the Japanese.

Just WHY Hitler chose to declare war is still a matter of hot debate among historians.




LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:16:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

...and who knows maybe your right perhaps all major military influences should just pull any aid, jobs and military personel from other countries and focus on their own people's needs for awhile.


and again - I didnt say or even suggest that!

I am saying and suggesting that no one is going to withdraw their military power, whatever anyone might propose as a moral reason to do so - because the ability to project military power protects and extends the commercial interests of a nation.

I am saying and suggesting that it all needs to be viewed with this reality of the situation in mind, and not whatever propaganda reasons are advanced to the populace.

E


That was the general idea that I got from some of your posts but I admit to having issues at times with context and how things are worded, I'll re-read your posts with the above post in mind.




LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:18:19 AM)

True enough JW - but then the UK owed the US a lot of money for all those supplies, so it wouldnt have done to risk the UK getting defeated and the US then lose its investment?

I would guess that Hitler said something concerning the Jewry of New York, and the rest was history.

E




Leatherist -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:21:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

It is interesting that Churchill said that Dec 7 1941 was the first good nights sleep he had had in a very long time because it was the first time he new our side would win.


I find that odd since Germany did not declare war until December 11th.... something it was NOT required to do because the Axis Treaty was defensive in nature and could not be envoked if any of the members was an aggresssor.

While it is true that Roosevelt wanted to come of England's aid, had not Germany declared war he would have faced considerable resistence from both the Congress and the military had he tried unilaterally to envolve us in a two-front war.  Without the German declaration, we probably would have fought only against the Japanese.

Just WHY Hitler chose to declare war is still a matter of hot debate among historians.


I've always seen it as for the same reason he attacked russia way too soon-megalomania.




LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:25:07 AM)

I'm suddenly hit with two thoughts...

1.  If we did demilitarize the United States, I wonder who would be first in line to attack us?

2.  Until we as a species can learn to respectfully agree to disagree the world will never know peace.




meatcleaver -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:34:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i'll say it again.  Great Britian (indeed all of Europe) doesn't need us, we don't need them.  i'm all for making the divorce final.


A divorce would be foolish and unnecessary. Whether we fall out or not, the rest of the world views us as one adversary or competitor, and our response must be united as far as possible.

What is required, is for the European countries who choose (basically because the US is there) not to spend on their militaries, to step up to the plate and make a contribution to the whole which is in line with their ability to do so.

For instance, Germany - a larger population than we have in the UK and a more prosperous one too. Yet who provides thousands of troops for Afghanistan's combat zones and who provides a few logistics types far from the firing lines?

E


Germany doesn't need to spend the same proportion of its GDP to have a bigger military than Britain because it is much wealthier and anyway, it is tied to spending limits and its pacifist constitution imposed by the allies in 1945 and German quite like it that way. Britain is the biggest obstacle to a pan-European military because of its desperation to keep transatlantic ties. But tell me, who is going to invade Europe, Russia? It has a population of 150 million against 500 million with an economy approx the same size as London and a military which has obsolete equipement. They aren't any worry unless they are on a nuclear suicice mission. Why give up decent education, healthcare, publiuc transport and infrastructure to go on a paranoia fit to make 'big money' happy?




meatcleaver -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:37:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

I'm suddenly hit with two thoughts...

1.  If we did demilitarize the United States, I wonder who would be first in line to attack us?



No one. It doesn't take too many brain cells to work that one out.

Huh-oh Here comes Canada![sm=wiggleass.gif]




LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:42:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

I'm suddenly hit with two thoughts...

1.  If we did demilitarize the United States, I wonder who would be first in line to attack us?



No one. It doesn't take too many brain cells to work that one out.

Huh-oh Here comes Canada![sm=wiggleass.gif]


lol all I have to say is...

[sm=hellno.gif]

Although, I hear Canadians have a kick A medical plan

I'm Arapaho I'm used to foreigners coming in and taking over.  Yea just a little flammatory, I know[:D]




LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 8:50:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Germany doesn't need to spend the same proportion of its GDP to have a bigger military than Britain because it is much wealthier and anyway, it is tied to spending limits and its pacifist constitution imposed by the allies in 1945 and German quite like it that way. Britain is the biggest obstacle to a pan-European military because of its desperation to keep transatlantic ties. But tell me, who is going to invade Europe, Russia? It has a population of 150 million against 500 million with an economy approx the same size as London and a military which has obsolete equipement. They aren't any worry unless they are on a nuclear suicice mission. Why give up decent education, healthcare, publiuc transport and infrastructure to go on a paranoia fit to make 'big money' happy?


So youre saying Germany can afford it, but doesnt want to play its full part in NATO? Thats like the kid who comes to your birthday party, eats all the cake but doesnt bring a present.

Anyway - I agree that the military is there for the purposes of commercial interests. Albeit there could be some good spin offs;
1) increased manufacturing and research jobs; exports of what we produce
2) higher employment (if only we could convince people to join; its pretty desperate right now)
3) the ability to go and take what we want as we did in the imperial days - hugely profitable

Its about understanding, as you do, what the true purposes of the military are, and bending these to produce commercial benefits for many, rather than a few.

E




eyesopened -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 9:05:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven
Although, I hear Canadians have a kick A medical plan


*smiles*  A little article from the Canada Free Press
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2004/klaus071204.htm





LilMissHaven -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 9:08:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven
Although, I hear Canadians have a kick A medical plan


*smiles*  A little article from the Canada Free Press
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2004/klaus071204.htm




Hmmm seems like nobody can get their act together.




kdsub -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 9:47:29 AM)

hmmm...I'd say we will be speaking Chinese and trying to figure which direction Mecca is so we can pray.




LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 11:13:12 AM)

Yep Butch - and that is precisely why all the noise directed at Iran. With Saddam out of the picture there is every prospect of a new Persian Empire from the border of India to Suez, in control of a significant proportion of global oil reserves and the seas via the pinch point at Suez. That would certainly be my long term strategic aim, if I were ruling in Tehran anyway. And thats also why a presence in Iraq "until whenever" is necessary.

E




Zensee -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 11:13:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I concur it was a ruse but not for commercial interests - it was to shape the battlefield and to move the fight off our shores. The fact is that US Marines pissing on the walls of sacred mosques and Army soldiers making naked feces smeared muslim men pose with panties on their heads pisses off the terrorists - who flocked to Iraq to attack in their anger and outrage, As a result approx 100,000 iraqi civilians are dead and there hasnt been a single us terrorist victim in the CONUS since 2001.  Like I said, there will be collateral damage and better it is there than here... [:D] Sucks to be them but oh well, the muslims get their little tempers worked up and they go in the market in Baghdad and blow themselves up. Good riddance. Brilliant move - kind of like why we took the battle to the beaches of Normandy instead of the streets of London. Break someone elses shit and kill someone elses people. Someone has to die and it damn well wont be us. Nothing to do with commercial interests at all.


If it was a ruse how can you be so sure it was not on behalf of comercial interests? Once the lies start flowing do you get to pick and choose all of a sudden? It's pretty damned obvious it's about commerce.

The lesson the USA learned in WW2 has been described in detail by youself in this thread. It's not the lesson that war is horror and atrocity, it's the lesson that war is very good business, if it is fought elsewhere than home soil. It's all very well to demonstrate a capability to reach beyond one's borders in order to protect them, it is another thing altogether to make military force a customary part of economic and ideological  aggression, as the USA has done countless times in South America, the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

It's this attitude of special entitlement that generates such rage against the USA. Canada is your closest friend. We are cousins really. Yet you attack our economy, virtually destroyed out lumber industry and tried the same with our agriculture. You force your own domestic policies on us and interfere directly in our internal business. This is how you treat your dearest and most trusted friends, with contempt and opportunism. You confound agreements of fair trade and tell us how to live our lives. And you feel no qualms at all.

You treat your friends like enemies and your enemies like animals. Where do you get off thinking such attitudes will earn you respect?

As for your argument that the death of 100,000 Iraqis has helped bring security to the USA, nothing could be further from the truth. Broadcasting, with bombs and bullets, an opinion that American lives are of greater worth than the lives of any other innocent civilians, is deadly hubris in the "war on terror" or "the war FOR democracy". The policy of overt aggression has only served to multiply, diversify and intensify the enmity towards the USA.

The fact that no acts of  terror have been committed on US soil since 9/11 is in no way due to the occupation of Iraq. It is entirely due to the improvements in function of domestic, international and shared intelligence operations, who had their collective noses rubbed in the petty, internal bullshit which allowed the unlikely events of 9/11 to move to completion.

It has also come at the cost of true liberty in the home of the brave and the free.


Z.




Justme696 -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 11:16:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Yep Butch - and that is precisely why all the noise directed at Iran. With Saddam out of the picture there is every prospect of a new Persian Empire from the border of India to Suez, in control of a significant proportion of global oil reserves and the seas via the pinch point at Suez. That would certainly be my long term strategic aim, if I were ruling in Tehran anyway. And thats also why a presence in Iraq "until whenever" is necessary.

E


Sadly it seems that presence doesn't do much.
And it is a mirracle that while so many die, the oil prices raise and raise. ( it seems if soem sheik needs a new car, they close the wells a few day to raise the price).
We should focus on Africa....the precious metals are beeing bought by China in exchange of weapons.





LadyEllen -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 11:23:18 AM)

That presence JustMe, was a totally unnecessary one and an extremely stupid move, motivated by hopes for the exact reverse situation with regard to access to resources as has actually obtained. Now though, its entirely necessary to remain there to prevent Iran taking over. Saddam had the whole thing under control to our advantage, wouldnt tolerate any loyalty to anyone or thing but him (giving Islamicists no chance)- and we had Saddam under control.

E




calamitysandra -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 1:35:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
For instance, Germany - a larger population than we have in the UK and a more prosperous one too. Yet who provides thousands of troops for Afghanistan's combat zones and who provides a few logistics types far from the firing lines?
E


You know, there are some obstacles stemming from history when it comes to the German military and fighting.
I would not count on that changing too soon.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Demilitarizing America (5/6/2008 1:57:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
*smiles*  A little article from the Canada Free Press
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2004/klaus071204.htm


Funny thing that article.

One point: if the U.S. had universal healthcare and there were no private insurers and there was additionally a ministry that set the rates for goods and services - if the doctors didn't like the pay rate where would they go alternatively? What other country would they all be clamoring to migrate to?

Yup, the party will soon be over...

The reason Canada suffered the departure of some doctors was because the doctors were able to cross the border to better pay in the U.S. Close off that alternative and I can see some doctors returning to Canada.

[8|]




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